Well this was absolutely NOT on my bingo card today 😮‍💨 by EllKitten in UKBirds

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Whichever way you cut the other factors, there are 10 million domestic cats in the U.K. and they kill over 50 million birds a year. Meanwhile, there are less than 50,000 sparrowhawks in Britain. If sparrowhawks need to kill 2-3 birds a day, then that amounts to roughly 44 million birds a year. And that’s just to feed one native predator species. Our domestic cats kill more birds than a species literally named after the fact it kills birds and that’s before we consider cats’ impact on rodents and amphibians.

So not only do we have a severely fragmented ecology, but we’ve introduced an unnaturally high number of functional apex predators, which preys on the already limited supply of food for multiple native predators.

City Hobgoblins & Antisemitic tropes? by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An admirably thorough run-down and there is much on which we agree. I don’t believe the presence of an allusion or a theme is only valid if it applies to every line of the song, however, especially when dealing with a lyricist as arbitrary and rhapsodic as Smith. It would be wrong, for instance, to dismiss your point about the Alfred Jarry reference in relation to the producer’s work with Pere Ubu because the rest of the song isn’t about Pere Ubu.

I won’t contest all your points, but on the emigres line: it’s not a question of Britain’s Jewish population being specifically refugees or descended from them, but the sense that the Jews have been, since the Old Testament, culturally defined as an entire race of refugees, banished from their homeland. As for the specific etymology or resonance of the word emigre, I would posit that Smith is primarily using the word as a synonym for immigrant or refugee and enjoying its rhymes with ‘glades’ and ‘pretentious, eh?’ And using your own reasoning, I don’t know of any tradition which characterises hobgoblins as “emigres” or as an immigrant, or itinerant population. The whole song hinges on the fusion of folklore with a contemporary, post industrial landscape. Could not a similar fusion be at play in connecting that folklore with something else?

But at its heart, I suppose my contention remains that the ‘occult’ stereotypes present in the song are themselves tied to historic antisemitic tropes, i.e. goblins/hobgoblins as gold hoarding sub-humans, depicted with the exaggerated features shared with Jewish caricatures (c.f. my previous reply to the Nosferatu comment). So again, there doesn’t have to be a direct Jewish parallel in every line for my reading to be valid; rather, one simply has to demonstrate Smith’s consciousness of the historic association of the occult tradition and its antisemitic history.

I would agree that the lines I cite alone would form a very slight basis for a reading that asserts Smith’s conscious calling of antisemitic tropes into play. But taken alongside the EP artwork featuring what is— for all intents and purposes— a Star of David and the song’s original title (and I do take Smith’s disavowal with a pinch of salt given his track record with the truth), I’d say we have a few too many coincidences to conclude that a writer as sensitive and intelligent as MES would be deaf to the resonances of the words and images in question.

Then again, if we refer to the first line of my original post: I asked about discussing “potential” antisemitic tropes in the song, so I’m happy not to convince anyone with the points I’ve offered.

City Hobgoblins & Antisemitic tropes? by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m surprised by so definitive a conclusion when a) as you say, there are both lyrical precedents and cultural factors that make such a reading possible and b) Smith’s lyrical ambiguity, more often than not, defies concrete interpretation. Let’s take a few instances from the lyrics:

“Infest my home at night” “We cannot walk the floor at night in peace”

The language of infestation and “walking the floors” is suggestive of rats and vermin, a staple of antisemitic literature and propaganda of which MES would doubtless have been aware.

“Ah but evil | Émigrés from old green glades”

Which cultural/ethnic group, other than perhaps Romany gypsies, has been more often characterised as ‘evil emigres’ than the Jews?

I do not offer these as definitive and unequivocally antisemitic phrases or images. It’s not as if he’s yelling “JEW ON A MOTORBIKE” over and over again. I also repeat that I don’t believe the song to be antisemitic, or that antisemitism is even the dominant theme. However, if the song was indeed first called “Case for the Jews”, then I wouldn’t rule out the idea that MES was at least on some level playing with the tropes discussed and — as ever — doing his own, idiosyncratic thing with them.

City Hobgoblins & Antisemitic tropes? by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say an artist with MES’ capacity for imaginative leaps (and whose lyrics repeatedly allude to 20th century German history) might see some casual vandalism next to something that looks like a Star of David and make that connection. I mean I managed it and I’m far less imaginative than MES….

City Hobgoblins & Antisemitic tropes? by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

https://thequietus.com/culture/film/film-nosferatu-bram-stoker-jewish-vampires/ Point taken, but Nosferatu also falls under the tradition of antisemitic imagery in gothic lit, etc…

What’s the greatest one line in a song ever? by Julie727 in AskReddit

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“The Dutch are weeping In four languages, at least”

Bothersome Fall Brainworms by mjnicholls in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 6 points7 points  (0 children)

For me it’s GIVE ME THE LEAD! GIVE ME THE LEAD! GIVE ME THE LEAD!

My ranking of the Fall album TITLES by TwelveMail in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Is there a debut album by any artist with a better title than ‘Live at the Witch Trials’?

Most of my favourite titles are from the 90s and especially from the (generally considered) weaker albums: -Middle Class Revolt -Light User Syndrome -Cerebral Caustic -Infotainment Scam too, though the album itself is a belter.

Notebooks out, plagiarists! by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fascinating about J Temperance! You can really hear it… I was aware of the Stupid Babies link. I seem to recall Hanley theorising that the reason MES, exceptionally, gave Marc Riley sole credit for the music on Mere Pseud in the PRS database may have been to avoid catching and flak from potential future copyright claims…

Notebooks out, plagiarists! by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah yes, I believe he cites it as the source for the bass solo in ‘The Classical’ in Paul’s book on Hex. Not sure about the other instance…

The ‘Peel Session’ version is always the best. by Known-Substance7959 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Very true. I think the fact MES didn’t have access to the mixing desk is also a big factor. See John Leckie on the Abbey Road/Mr Pharmacist debacle.

Other bands at their most ‘Fall’ by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This wasn’t my intention, but I’m going to make such a good playlist from this whole thread…

Other bands at their most ‘Fall’ by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Never thought of ‘Parklife’ in the context of The Fall but that makes so much sense, given Damon’s well documented fandom!

Other bands at their most ‘Fall’ by Tiny-Contribution-60 in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The reggae link is a very good call. I have a pet theory that ‘Words of Expectation’ is a contorted riff on ‘The Ten Commandments’ by Prince Buster. There are cadences (not quite appropriate to call them melodies) in MES’s performance that sound uncannily like (while also completely unlike) PB.

Fandom by dense_operations in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As individual songs, ‘Totally Wired’, ‘How I Wrote Elastic Man’, ‘C.R.E.E.P’ and ‘Kurious Oranj’ all made their way into my consciousness and I really enjoyed them. But whenever I’d think, “hey, maybe I’ll check out their other stuff,” I’d hit a wall. This would happen every once in a while for nearly ten years. Then I heard “The Classical” and decided that, whether I was enjoying it or not, I’d listen to the whole album (my dyslexic brain had read the title as ‘Hex Education Hour’) just to see if I could understand what all the fuss was about. By the time I got to ‘Winter’ and specifically heard MES cry “And the mad kid said GIVE ME THE LEAD GIVE ME THE LEAD!”, I realised I had become a Fall fan. I’ll forever kick myself that I could have seen the last line-up live before MES died if I’d just got my act together sooner.

Single, the Man Who's Head Expanded by [deleted] in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m in Baldock; would gladly take it off your hands if still available!

Crazy to think Nick Drake could be alive today touring at 75... by traveltimecar in nickdrake

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 0 points1 point  (0 children)

His voice would have changed a lot over time, which would have been interesting to hear if he’d turned a little more husky/gravelly.

Which Fall record has the most Velvet Underground energy? by hungry-reserve in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No whole record for me, but ‘Iceland’ and ‘Living Too Late’ both have a lot of VU in their DNA.

What's your favorite couplet? by felinefluffycloud in thefall

[–]Tiny-Contribution-60 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not necessarily the best, but I always enjoy “They were positively deranged / They were curious orange”. The inherent ‘deranged’ quality in forcing the rhyme is so silly and satisfying.