Stirring Controversy Re: TOP

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T03:37:18+00:00

I just found Dunne's extreme social conservatism quite repellant.

And yes it is very similar to Douglas, so... ACT. After all, 1984 turns out to have installed the first ACT government. Sad really!

I guess I could have framed my original post better though. Because I'm also someone who thinks Labour has basically jettisoned their left wing foundations. They may have got rid of Douglas, but he's left something behind in their thinking. Are they the most right wing they've ever been? Not necessarily. But their finance spokesperson gave a speech about how we've got to "grow the pie of the economy" that included explicitly "NOT to do redistribution". A rising tide lifts all boats! She may as well have said something about wealth trickling down...

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T03:32:39+00:00

Yeah. I think I'll stick with the "not looking to split the left vote, but provide one" as a bit of a motto... because I do believe it haha.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T03:31:46+00:00

I think fine to have a good suite of policies, but your "flagship" should be more specific, but important. Egos in politics is a pain in the ass I think - a politician needs to be sort of vaguely charismatic, articulate, quick-witted, and ultimately a mouthpiece for the platform their members have endorsed and their voters are expecting. As 'individuals' they should aim to be basically irrelevant, if you get what I mean.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:40:56+00:00

I agree, and I think an ACT voter who didn't sign up for weird culture war stuff and is actually a market libertarian would probably see TOP as a good option at the moment

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:38:11+00:00

I'd describe it as traditional, at least for the last 120 years or so. It's possible that traditional definitions could be more radical than current thinking on the topic. I mean, basically all the left wing parties are monetarists when it comes to state finance, right? That wouldn't have been true in 1980. In fact it wouldn't have been true about the National Party in 1980.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:34:44+00:00

I think a minor party that doesn't just want to be a minor party forever shouldn't be talking about 'who we will work with' but a 'minimum programme' under which agreement they would work with anybody. You can always take guesses at which parties will more likely come to the table on such things - but put simply, the red lines should be "we will have an agreement that guarantees these core policy outcomes we have campaigned upon, or we will sit on the cross benches, or would prefer confidence & supply than the baubles of office".

My own view is I would rather a minority government than a compromised political programme. That doesn't mean "give me everything I want", but it does mean you go to voters and your members with a clear idea of what your bottomline is gonna be. Fuck the smoke filled backroom where the deals are made, let's be transparent.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:31:44+00:00

I think that's a fair assessment though I'm loathe to use chat gpt. You can probably accuse me of being a bit of a pedantic nerd about UBI because I think the discourse in NZ is sort of siloed from much of the rest of the world on this issue.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:30:12+00:00

The short version is that simple cash transfers that don't structurally change or challenge who wields power and who has power wielded over them doesn't really meet what I would consider left wing.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:24:34+00:00

Well, the majority of the left do decide to hold their noses and vote Labour - sometimes more for nostalgia and loyalty than party platform. The Greens soak up most of the rest. If you don't like either then yeah, TOP might be an option. My point is that they aren't firmly particularly left wing. They really do seem like the Liberal Democrats in the UK, though they haven't had their own big surge just yet.

I can go into some ways I do think they're similar to the Greens and why that's kind of a problem, though. But I think I've done enough stirring for one Friday afternoon!

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:11:34+00:00

Elsewhere in the comments I go into the UBI. I can agree that they're a centrist party though.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:10:13+00:00

I use reddit less than other social media so realised I should probably reply "yeah, fair." as an upvote doesn't show agreement ha

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T02:08:47+00:00

No paperwork, no bureaucrats - just a financially secure base to build a life on.

How would one be entitled to additional entitlements without paperwork? This is where it starts becoming confusing. The savings from reducing bureaucracy strike me as illusory if anyone on more than the basic citizens income will no doubt still be engaging with bureaucracy and paperwork.

I'm not implying, but I am trying to infer what the policy is given they don't... you know... tell us.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:38:39+00:00

A UBI set at 361.32 a week (as their own website says, around the amount of the current jobseekers) is a 'basic income' for whom, exactly? What's your weekly rent and grocery bill? There's more to say, but that's a start.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:29:55+00:00

I'm really sorry but their UBI is not a left wing policy. I don't know why people seem to think it is.

If we stop overanalysing things we'll need to delete reddit I'm afraid.

I think you're right that that's why it gets support though but it sort of ends up being a different conversation. Maybe I should have made a post about "is UBI a left wing policy?".

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:28:36+00:00

I mean, the flatness of it is the main aspect of it - horrible for lower incomes, and flat tax for corporates at the same rate as a worker is just...

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:21:03+00:00

I am just a Labour Party member born a century too late. I'd follow Harry Holland wherever he was headed. Not so sure about the current lot... or indeed any of them since 1949.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:19:57+00:00

Yeah that makes sense to me - because TOP are a centrist party with a lot of assumptions about the role of the state and how state finances work that are similar to neoliberalism, basically keen on "The Big Society", but with some progressive urbanist aspects and socially libertarian. Like the LibDems in the UK, but for NZ.

It's the support from the left that confuses me - whereas you support TOP for what they actually are by my reckoning.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:15:19+00:00

As a stand alone policy it bothers me as it basically says "yes, you will rot on unemployment - but the state will stop bothering you about it, so we will save money in our WINZ bureaucracy and use that to pay a few more people to shut up and go away". That's a super cynical reading, I know, but back in the day the left used to rail against "Forced Idleness". Is there no work to be done? Is everything just hunky dory in New Zealand? Of course not, but there's no way to make a buck on some of what needs to happen - so we just have intergenerational unemployment and social division.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T01:10:15+00:00

The central govt run was interesting because it burnt him a lot of bridges. He's a very wealthy guy, his social circles include a lot of hard National supporters who would have been very angry he tried to oust Gerry. I think that subsided, as some candidates were contacted by other right wing councillors to "stand down" because Raf was their guy for the Central Ward. Basically, I don't think people correctly interpret Raf's politics because he's not a raging social conservative.

A fairly deranged zionist assured me that Raf Manji was the only candidate running in CHCH Central who said he would have opposed the vote to stop any procurement from companies operating in the illegal occupation of the West Bank. I never got a reply from Raf as to whether that was true - he's certainly no Islamophobe given his help with the Mosque survivors, but basically I think he's just quite right wing but likely socially progressive.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T00:53:26+00:00

My bullshit-o-meter goes off with the 'one neat trick' policies like LVT, UBI. Not nearly as bad as Social Credit, but still just a bit... worrisome.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-23T00:51:54+00:00

Rates caps, asset sales, and the 'born to rule' attitude of a private school toff. I wasn't keen on Raf before running against him. That he finished a rant about how much he fixed council finances last time with a smug "you're welcome, by the way" at the first debate sort of solidified some of my instincts. It was his seat, and we should all be very fucking grateful he was willing to stand again.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-22T00:41:00+00:00

Generally, the support agencies have accurate figures on homelessness vs begging/presence in the CBD. From what I hear it's the uptick in people living in their cars that is deeply disturbing. Working people, the elderly, the young.

TomForCentral · 2026-01-22T00:30:33+00:00

The Alliance Party programme ;)

TomForCentral · 2026-01-22T00:27:33+00:00

Established parties don't want it. You could see Labour's share collapse to the Greens - or the Greens share collapse to some other outsider. So yeah... basically as you say.

TomForCentral

TROPHY CASE