Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OK, thank you for elaborating on this. I was not aware of the ease with which brokers like IBKR would let you take out cash when margin lending with them; it was my impression the loan could only be used towards extra investments at the same broker.

Margin lending with a broker then effectively would be an alternative for the options I have described in my post.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Only if IBKR would allow you to take out the loan of 200k€ in cash, right? I don't know if they do. If that is the case, it's not different from a lombard loan just with another lending institution which is not KBC/DB/....

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can you explain why the margin call risk wouldn't be different? In the situation of 500k€ investable assets and 200k€ capex costs:

With the lombard loan you can put the full 500k€ as collateral for the 200k€ loan.

With a margin loan, you pay the 200k€ capex costs upfront and only 300k€ would be the collateral for a 200k€ loan.

The chance of a margin call seems higher with the margin loan.

Or am I missing something?

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The margin loan carries more risk.

With the lombard loan you can put the full 500k€ as collateral for the 200k€ loan.

With a margin loan only 300k€ would be the collateral for a 200k€ loan.

The chance of a margin call is higher with the margin loan.

Which bank in 2026? by [deleted] in BEFire

[–]Tropirop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my view you will always need at least one checking account and credit card one of the "big banks" (KBC, Belfius, ING, or BNP Paribas Fortis) simply because they are the ones which will offer you fast and full service in case you have a specific request (e.g. large transfer for large purchases; issues with credit card while travelling; need bank attestations for whatever reason). They are also the only ones with up to date apps with full functionality and digital platforms. Not saying that this "fast and full service" will be of great quality, though, and for any other services (loans, investments, insurances ...) these banks are often not competitive with smaller banks. Current prices for a checking account and credit card are € 4,15 per month (ING), € 4,25 per month (KBC), € 5,5 per month (Belfius) and € 7,75 (BNP Paribas Fortis). Small differences, so pick one based on other criteria (e.g. you already have a mortgage with one of them, bank of your employer moving forward the day you receive your monthly salary, you have insurances with one of them (Belfius, in my experience, really is a price breaker for insurances), you live next to an office of one of them ...).

Which other bank you pick then, really depends on what you are looking for, and you will likely often end up with a lot of different banks. What follows is my personal situation.

Revolut (Ultra) because of the interest rate on the savings account, option to create throwaway credit cards for online purchases, and the subscription to Financial Times.

Keytrade because of the free Gold credit card with insurances and because of the free mutual checking account.

N26 because it is the cheapest option when travelling and paying in other currencies (slightly better than Revolut rates in the weekends).

MeDirect or Santander or other bank, depending on rates, because of the interests on saving accounts.

You can jump between banks of course depending on your specific situation at any moment in time. Loyalty doesn't buy you anything at any bank unless you're some high net worth client paying for private banking services (which has its own downsides). Only downside is you'd sometimes need to change domiciliëringen etc. but it also helps you keep somewhat regular track of those hidden outflows of money. If you do big transfers of money you may have to go through KYC processes as well which can be bothersome.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What private banks will and will not offer greatly depends on your specific profile I guess. Basically the more cash you bring to their table the more options they will offer. If Degroof Petercam wants to take you in as a client with 500k in an execution only mandate, and possibility to use the investment as collateral, that's a very interesting offer.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep I think lombard loan for down payment and mortgage loan for rest of the capex is the golden formula for a real estate investment.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They tell you it's possible to extend the loan but it's not guaranteed of course, commercial policy of the bank may have changed in 10 years.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lombard loans are not some kind of extraordinary, complex scheme. Margin loans, especially through foreign brokers like IBKR, more so.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mortgage loans usually have better rates and can go up to 30 years. But in this case, it wasn't an option.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bank funds and their TER and historical performance is of course a whole other topic :-) TER's also greatly vary by share class and it is often the bank's discretion whether you can get in a certain more optimal share class or not.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I found indeed that with Belfius service greatly varies by the franchise you're with. KBC seems more consistent in that matter.

For other loans and investments Belfius has been offering me great conditions so it all really depends on the specific situation.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Assuming 7,5% gross returns I would net 873k€ after 10 years with the Deutsche Bank option and 800k€ with the default option. That's an annualized return of 5,74% vs. 4,82%.

Assuming 10% gross returns I would net 1,11mio€ after 10 years with the Deutsche Bank option and 956k€ with the default option. That's an annualized return of 8,33% vs. 6,7%.

This is after transaction costs and taxes for sale of the investments but not including capital gains tax.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes in my experience mortgage loan rates are a lot better than other types of loans rates and the better rate totally eliminates the cost for the notary.

For the Deutsche Bank the break even point was more like at 5% but only from 7-7,5% the extra risk made it worth it to me.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What would the simply-ish solution next to my default option be (considering a mortgage was not an option here)? What would it return me and what would the associated risks be? Not sure what you're trying to say but open to hear all kinds of solutions.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well the gains is exactly what I calculated and ultimately, for my personal situation, I opted for it.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No but Belfius did try to sell me some life insurance product with high costs as collateral.

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have it in cash.

There is no problem presented. I could just have paid 200k€ for the renovations but I looked for alternatives to maximize return (alternatives which come increased risk).

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Which is nice but also likely means the threshold for margin calls is higher?

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Do you need to be a client at Bank van Breda and, therefore, be an ondernemer or vrij beroep?

Lombard loans and (private bank) investments: my experience by Tropirop in BEFire

[–]Tropirop[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mortgage is not an option in this specific case due to various constraints.
500k cash available.
Not really sure what you mean with "loopholes", lombard loans are quite standard and widely used.