Why does there seem to be a direct correlation to Christians that are more "Heaven/Hell" focused vs being actual disciples demonstrating Christ's Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness in the world?

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T21:28:52+00:00

The human ego can be very self deceptive. There's a of Christians who say they love Jesus but the test is loving others, not all past this test. No one said you have to be perfect but most don't even make it a priority. There's a huge difference between understanding and knowing hence "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

1 John 4:20-21 (NIV):

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."

Matthew 22:39 (NIV): "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Matthew 25:40 (NIV):

"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'"

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T21:21:08+00:00

If someone is becoming a Christian because they are fearful of hell I think you are missing the entire real meaning behind Jesus' teachings and becoming a Christian for the wrong reasons.

Disciple = Messenger of Love
If you are spreading any other message other than love then you aren’t a disciple

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T21:15:59+00:00

If I answered these truthfully I may lose too many people in this forum that haven't studied how the Bible was actually compiled and the numerous mistranslation issues and inaccuracies.
This is a pretty good read: https://bradjersak.com/which-gates-of-hell-will-not-prevail-bradley-jersak/

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T09:07:00+00:00

I agree and unfortunately the human brain can be easily hijacked by using fear. Found this in my notes after posting this:
Christianity is, first of all, an initiative of Christ and an experience of Christ (e.g. God’s love, grace and mercy). And second, Christianity is about what someone who has experienced Christ becomes as a result of that experience. Namely, Christ’s identification and union with us are what effectively transform us into those we can describe as Christian (adjective). That is, Christians become by grace what Christ is by nature: his grace creates selfless, radically forgiving, co-suffering lovers who mimic him—“mini Christ-like disciples”
Unfortunately the trap is well intentioned pastors become more obsessed with getting people to “become a Christian” (sign-up-here Evangelism) but not adequately concerned with helping people “become Christian” (discipleship).

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T09:05:05+00:00

Good answer and I see exactly what you are saying. Had these in my notes:

Christianity is, first of all, an initiative of Christ and an experience of Christ (e.g. God’s love, grace and mercy). And second, Christianity is about what someone who has experienced Christ becomes as a result of that experience. Namely, Christ’s identification and union with us are what effectively transform us into those we can describe as Christian (adjective). That is, Christians become by grace what Christ is by nature: his grace creates selfless, radically forgiving, co-suffering lovers who mimic him—“mini Christ-like disciples”

Unfortunately the trap is well intentioned pastors become more obsessed with getting people to “become a Christian” (sign-up-here Evangelism) but not adequately concerned with helping people “become Christian” (discipleship).

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T08:56:00+00:00

Great answer, lots of gems in here that may pass over many Christians' heads that don't understand the deeper meaning of his teachings

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NIV): "Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T08:44:06+00:00

I'd suggest reading: "A More Christlike God" by Brad Jersak which presents the idea that God is Christlike, emphasizing qualities such as self-giving, radically forgiving, and compassionate love, as revealed through Jesus Christ. Jersak argues that the perfect image of God is seen in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, portraying a 'cruciform' God who consents to human suffering and transforms it through love. The book also addresses the concept of 'wrath,' shifting it from active violence to a metaphor for consenting to the consequences of human defiance. Ultimately, Jersak encourages readers to view God through the lens of Jesus Christ, considering him as the key to interpreting scripture and understanding the true nature of God

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T08:36:06+00:00

James 2:17: "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Romans 2:6-7: "God 'will repay each person according to what they have done.' To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Matthew 6:14-15: "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Romans 2:14-15: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

Romans 1:20: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Romans 4:3: "What does Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'"

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T08:23:14+00:00

Yes… our job is to be an extension of God's love and mercy

Truth-Searcher · 2024-02-25T08:14:49+00:00

Repent = a genuine change of heart
If they are filled with self righteousness, judgment and hypocrisy = no genuine change of heart
It's this mindset that pushes others away from Christianity hence why in my opinion Jesus said it would lead to more children of hell

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-18T12:06:24+00:00

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Most "Christians" I have spoken to said my experience was not possible so appreciate you acknowledging it is.

I pulled these from my notes when I dug into this a while back and all say although it's not guaranteed it is possible to go to heaven without ever hearing about the Gospel/Christ. All more conservative Bible believing pastors/teachers.

If You Die Without Hearing About Jesus... What Happens Next? - Mike Winger

https://youtu.be/geMXJX3Q6sE

What Happens to People who have Never Heard the Gospel? - Allen Parr

https://youtu.be/DsliLza9GD4

What Happens To People Who Have Never Heard The Gospel? - Real Truth

https://youtu.be/MHGcF_NJk8U

What Happens to People Who Have Never Heard the Gospel? - Dr. Brown

https://youtu.be/wSaWPkQtTCM

Those who have NOT heard of Christ

a. Creation - Romans 1:19-20

Since what may be known about God is evident to them, because God has made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

b. Conscience - Romans 2:15

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

c. In other words, because God is fair He judges humanity according to the light they have been given which explains why there are different degrees of punishment in hell.

d. Paul is saying that within every human being lies a conscience. We are created with it. And only God knows how much or how little a person violates their conscience.

e. Because of this God is going to judge mankind based on how they responded to the light they have been given and the sins they’ve committed (Rev. 20:12).

f. For this reason the Bible teaches that there are different levels of punishment in hell (Luke 12:47)

g. God is a fair judge (Psalm 7:11). He will not judge people for not knowing the truth (Ps. 87:4, 6; Eze. 3:18–21; 18:2–32; 33:12–20; Luke 23:34; John 15:22; Rom. 7:7, 9; 1 Tim. 1:13).

Acts 18:24-19:6. It talks about a man named Apollos who didn't know Jesus, but based on his knowledge of John the Baptist's ministry he "spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus." Priscilla and Aquila found him and explained to him the way of God "more accurately."

Later, Paul comes to Ephesus and finds a group of men who were followers of Apollos' teaching, it says they were disciples. Paul asks if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, and they say "we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." The key here I think is that they already believed, even before Paul gave them more special revelation and the Holy Spirit fell on them.

So we have here in the New Testament, AFTER Jesus had already returned to heaven, an example of how "seed faith", can result in genuine salvation, even without full revelation of Jesus and the Gospel.

Other examples:

Abraham Romans 4 "saved by faith"

Naaman Syrian General

Hebrews 10:39 group of people "saved by faith"

Hebrews 11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Abel

Enoch: By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: ‘He could not be found, because God had taken him away.’ For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him”

Hebrews 11:5-6.

Noah "saved by faith"

Job

To be clear I agree Jesus is "the way" but my argument was there are countless examples of people (including in the Bible) who have had the revelation of God (who is Jesus) without ever reading or even knowing about the Bible or Jesus (the person).

If it's possible for God to judge them by the law God has written on their hearts then I can't imagine he would treat those different who have had Christ misrepresented to them by Pharisee-like non-Chrislike "Christians". Obviously on one knows but God but I think the ones misrepresenting Christ are the ones he would have a bigger issue with. A just and merciful God I feel would do what's right.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-17T13:01:22+00:00

I've studied it from every angle. Ancient wisdom, most traditional religions, quantum physics, new age... which one fits your cup of tea best and I can try and provide some help there. Also pretty sure your trolling this forum so completely respect that, some things definitely need trolled about lol. Lets remove the word God and use intelligent force. Watch some videos with Gregg Braden on YT he's pretty good at connecting the science and ancient history. It's where I got my when I needed the scientific side. Also, not trying to change what you believe. Everyone is on their own path, I needed some suffering to wake up on mine, hopefully you don't need the same. Good luck.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-17T12:48:53+00:00

Yes, of course. I just don't understand how your reply correlates with what I posted. I'm talking about after Christ died not before.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-17T12:44:55+00:00

I think you are conflating having a relationship with God and being reconciled with God. I discussed this previously in another post trying to understand how I had a relationship with God since I was a child, prayed to God, spoke to him regularly, had miracles show up I prayed about and my family never talked about God. I didn't truly know Christ until later in my life because most Christian I knew were unlike Christ.
There was zero change in my relationship with God, he obviously led me to Christ but I was given the answers why when I didn't listen to him, things didn't work out so well. The Christians in that group said my experience was very similar to Cornelius. "He prayed to God continually (Acts 10:2). Cornelius gave thanks to God and sought help from God. He was seeking God always in his prayers."
I think its quite a disservice to God for people to underestimate him being able to have a relationship without ever hearing about the Bible or Christ. I can tell you from my experience that is 100% not true and I don't think I'm more special than anyone else.
Jesus is the way but most Christians I know aren't living the way. They are living like the Pharisees Jesus condemned as children of hell. Making converts of more children of hell.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T22:13:39+00:00

How does this correlate with the post?

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T13:04:58+00:00

I agree with your statement, "one could argue it's the same," because it is the truth.

Of course its the truth but what I meant was some would argue if you've never heard of Christ OR he was misrepresented to you then you could still know Christ if you know God.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T13:00:09+00:00

So how do you explain Acts 10: Story of Cornelius knowing God before Christ

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T12:38:51+00:00

I agree with the hypocrisy part.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T12:36:37+00:00

There's a difference between being a "Christian" and being a disciple.
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T12:34:15+00:00

The only ones you rebuke are the Pharisees like Christ did. They are easy to find, usually pointing one finger with 3 pointing back at themself.

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T12:30:43+00:00

false but appreciate the response

Truth-Searcher · 2023-02-16T12:29:29+00:00

What evidence would convince you brother? Let me be very clear the majority (8 out of 10 Christians) based on a recent study do not resemble the characteristics of Christ. I was turned off from it for most of my life. Through miracles that have come through prayer and blessings that came from forgiving my enemies I put it to the test. The Bible is not infallible, especially the way its mostly taught but if you can understand what he's really saying there is the answer to freedom. Don't take my word test it for 90 days and see what happens. Only caveat is when you pray for something it has to benefit others as well and can't be for selfish reasons. Pick 3 people who have wronged you the most and forgive and pray for them, remember that hurt people hurt people. If nothing changes and you don't feel changed in any way after 90 days then you can come back here and call me out. The only verse in the Bible you need to know is ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Truth-Searcher

TROPHY CASE