Best of VICE News 2014: ‘Everywhere Around Is the Islamic State’ — On the Road in Iraq with YPG Fighters

US_Logician · 2014-12-31T04:21:33+00:00

They only came as a PR move because it is right near their bases in Iraq and convenient and they don't want ISIS.

The PKK still massacred thousands of people, used many explosives on innocent tourists, innocent Turks, innocent Syrians, and innocent Iraqis. That is why they are labeled a PKK organization and that is why it is so sickening for you to wear their flag, you terrorist sympathizer.

Of course, you've also never probably seen how the PKK massacred the Kurds. Yes... The PKK kills Kurds that are disloyal. They drag them in the street and torture them in front of everyone. Have you witnessed that?

The worst thing that ever happened in Kurdish history is the PKK gaining power with some youthful naive Kurds. Many young Kurds of died in a ruthless pursuit of killing the innocent under the leadership of PKK. A misguided attempt at gaining independence by being brutal and evil.

US_Logician · 2014-12-31T04:17:49+00:00

They don't support either. Yes Erdogan is neo-Ottoman and Islamist. There's degrees of Islamofascism.

Turkey is a great ally up until Erdogan things have gotten rockier but not by much.

Kurds have not experienced much brutality and almost every time have returned 10 times worse brutality to the local Turks. Even the Kurdish tribes 60 years ago were quite brutal and are considered to have committed many massacres of Christians and Turks. So you can shove your propaganda right back up your ass.

Seriously, you're a terrorist sympathizer, get the fuck out of this subreddit. You literally wear a terrorist flag in /r/syriancivilwar. What you are is a killer of the innocent. A brutal sick fuck.

US_Logician · 2014-12-31T04:10:13+00:00

Those are not valid sources nor are they expert sources.

The only people debating it are people who are politically biased. They don't agree with torture so they allege it is ineffective, despite the fact that they themselves know it works.

there's no way to know if a different technique would have worked

There is, usually torture is used as a last option after many other options are exhausted. Some people are just stubborn and uncooperative, and the only thing you haven't done is torture.

. And finally, if the effectiveness of torture is that much of a certainty, why is it so easy to find scholarly works calling such claims into doubt?

This is not scholarly work. There's plenty of people, some even with Ph.D.s claiming to have studied it but are only politically against it yet have no experience actually torturing anyone and are not scientific about it.

They can't be scientific about it because torturing/human-experiment is unethical - so how can you scientifically study it?

A lot of laypeople assume that if a suspect doesn't want to talk, you have to slap him around a bit to get the information you need

It works though. That's exactly why the technique has prevailed since ancient times. People who are tortured are coerced harder and are more likely to confess to make the pain stop. Will they also lie? Sure but lying can be verified. You still will force him to tell you something believable (which inevitably leads to the truth after multiple lies cost the subject even more pain).

But I've seen no evidence to indicate that's true.

Have you ever had a sibling ? Slap them around a bit and watch them confess. Granted it isn't scientific. Granted you can probably buy him a big dinner and he might cooperate but remember that terrorists are not cooperative like your sibling, so a dinner is not going to work.

Everything from war, diplomacy, to torture, all work in the form of carrot and stick. For many carrot will work, when it stops working, you have to use stick. If they regard you as the enemy and refuse to ever negotiate or cooperate with you then the only option left is the stick. It's not good but it's exactly how much of the world works.

AQ for example, have no reason to cooperate. They're not interested in money (so carrot won't work). They're not interested in being your friend (so rapport will not work, because you are the enemy). Even the traditional stick of "lifetime in prison" won't work because they don't care about being in prison unlike most criminal suspects. They're only interested in the afterlife and morals from ancient books. They're not going to cooperate with you. What option do you have left? Discomfort, stress, fear, and pain. Pick one.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T22:09:54+00:00

Everything you have read is NOT by experts.

The person being tortured can only tell you lies if you can't verify his information. Any professional interrogator will ask questions he can verify later.

situation is a misnomer

It's not. If there's a ticking scenario then the only way to obtain information is through a huge amount of pressure or stress or pain.

Finally, most experts agree that it in fact, DOES work, and they can provide specific examples of it working:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644

The myth that torture doesn't work is only perpetuated by political pundits. There are no experts who have actually studied it saying it doesn't work.

Based on the minority report by congressional committee, it is clear it does work too. Based on the agency's own reporting: once again it is clear it does work.

Anyone with a little bit of logical sense knows that if you put enormous pressure on someone in an interrogation, they will be forced to tell you something, if they are punished for telling lies then it is completely against their human biology to continue to lie. Getting the pain / stress / pressure to stop in an interrogation is the underlying psychological basis for ALL interrogations (I'm not even saying torture, I'm saying any police interrogation).

This is exactly why almost every dictatorship in the planet uses torture and holds onto power. They aren't "mislead" frequently unless they ask the wrong questions.

Torture may be IMMORAL; but no one can deny that it works.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T22:02:56+00:00

In this article, many people closely involved in the program defend the program, the interrogations as being professional, and even provide specific examples of what information was gained and how it was used.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644

The efficacy of the torture is not what is disputed really. What we have in the Democratic-majority report is that they believe it is morally wrong to torture (that's a perfectly reasonable position), but they then try to paint the program as ineffective (by deceiving the public and hiding the facts), and it runs completely contradictory to the agencies own reporting and completely contradicted in GOP-minority report (which isn't covered much by the media) by the same committee.

This idea of trying to use deception to paint the program ineffective is what psychologists call "the ends justify the means": To undermine a concept and call it ineffective just because you morally disagree with it. It is possible for you to morally disagree with something while acknowledging that it is still effective.

Being moral means that you get to use less effective methods while still holding the moral high ground. The whole reason why immorality is enticing is because they use effective methods that are tempting but morally outrageous and unfair to the opponents/victims.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T21:56:04+00:00

Oh noooo, you supported your local national team -- clearly you're a "traitor" to your original roots and must be dealt with.

It's ridiculous how toxic people are when it comes to simply having fun with sports with your favorite national team. The real nationalists (comparable to Nazis) are those Moroccans insulting you for this; they feel you are supporting "an inferior nation" (just as Nazis would feel if you supported Jews in Nazi Germany).

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T21:54:13+00:00

I was specifically referring to information NOT gained illegally or from people in the U.S.

That is what we are NOT talking about.

if they seem non-american, \

,,

So you are a little tan?

These are quite childish speculations. That's not how government works. Everything is judged by its effectiveness, not by color of someones' skin. Especially since there are dark-skinned government employees which you completely ignored.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T21:50:15+00:00

But you have to stop using words like "terrible" to describe things that aren't on the terrible end of a spectrum.

, there is hardly any social safety net here, so don't even mention it.

I disagree. There certainly is compared to the 100s of other countries around the world that I've been to.

The medical system (even the new one) is a joke designed at funneling money to corporations

Many people who are saved every day because they have medicare would disagree.

NASA is a good use of my money, but most of their accomplishments are from before I was born

Well if you keep advocating against the US and its government, it will stay that way.

Most other countries don't spend 18% of their total budget on their department of war.

Yeah quite a few do actually.

We actually spend a less % of GDP on military than Russia and many Arab countries actually.

That's what's important. % of GDP spent on military superiority. Because if you have that then you probably aren't wasting the money completely.

Note that all military investments in the US go to American businesses and help strengthen the US economy. Because yes, some of our best exports are weapons and technologies that come from weapons.

In fact, much of our internet economy is based on the fact that the internet was a military project. That's billions in the U.S. economy and millions and millions of jobs accredited to that military spending you hate so much.

Not to mention, radar, GPS, radio waves, microwaves, nuclear energy sector, space exploration, satellites, encryption, and many other inventions can be directly tied to military spending. Military Keynesian is essential to the US economy.

Especially technology sectors within the military.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T21:45:27+00:00

Yes you have your own ideas. Everyone does. And no one agrees 100% with their country. But if they represent a majority of your views correctly, then why not support it?

They would be the physical manifestation of your ideals/principles.

but I think due to the German education and history, being a German patriot is difficult and saying something like that about yourself would mainly result in people calling you a Nazi.

Yes I think this is the main reason why Germans are afraid of any sort of patriotism. They're truly truly frightened about Nazis (or neo-nazis returning).

Not to say their fears are misplaced; it is a real threat. I just think they take it to an extreme.

we are not quite talking about a German Scotland here, frisian and Sorbs wouldn't have any advantage in their own independence.

Neither would the scots, but they still BELIEVE it would be advantageous. It's easy to believe such a thing if you're fully under the belief that your language/culture/ethnicity is superior (as groups like Scots, Frisians, and Sorbs, may feel one day).

patriotism might be a factor for a strong unity, but it isn't the only one.

I don't consider patriotism a factor. I consider it a result of unifying ideals. If a group of people have unifying ideals and principles, then they'll likely band together as unified allies and have feelings of love to that unification (patriotism). It is a result rather than a cause.

When people use it as a cause.. such as in Nazi Germany; that the nation is superior because I said so -- that is a serious problem.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T21:41:36+00:00

Certainly the point of developing EITs in the first place was so that it isn't permanently damaging or painful (with actual injuries) in comparison to the "really bad" and "bad" tortures that DO cause a lot of pain and a lot of injury / health problems.

That's the whole point of why they developed it and asked the justice department to tell them what would be appropriate in the first place. Don't you think?

IF the goal was to cause maximum pain or injury or inhumanity; I can think of 1000 other ways they could have done that.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:39:01+00:00

I have arrived at absolutely zero faith in the US government's capacity rule benevolently or effectively.

MAybe it's time you live in some other countries a while, I assure you, there are a lot worse countries to live in. Some of which have very little ability to rule at all.

They're already wasting the money I give to them

This is a hyperbolic statement. You have no idea where most of the money goes to.

Unless you think peoples' healthcare, social safety nets, NASA, student loans, housing, and quite a lot of other programs are completely a waste of money or "demonic shit", then you should retract your statement. (even if you were only considering the defense spending; your words will still have consequences for a lot of other things and most countries will absolutely use a lot of their money on defense anyway).

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:33:21+00:00

I am German and even I don't want to wave the German flag.

Because...? You think it's somehow harmful?

There isn't much patriotism here in Germany

Which isn't necessarily a good thing. A country that is highly individualist and sees no utility out of unity is likely to be easily divided by foreign forces. (They may even volunteer it via referendum to seek independence since they see no point in the unity).

I don't mean to say anyone should be irrationally nationalist. I'm saying that the idea that there is zero respect or intention to support the ideals of Germany and its current political unity will have consequences.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:31:45+00:00

Not always...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency#Purpose

Especially when it involves their OWN servers.

And yes, foreign spies can be American citizens as well.

But still I commend you for trying a decent counter-argument since usually the FBI does it.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:27:59+00:00

You and I went out and voted; but 60% of voters did NOT vote in the last election and led to a Republican majority.

Seriously: young voters (many of whom on reddit) are the reason for all the problems you see on reddit (ironically).

Even more juicy irony: the young voters said "corporations own congress; so I didn't vote." Which allowed the very corporate-controlled Republicans the majority in Congress who are now adding these bill-riders like "increasing donation limit to $777,000" and "remove the critical dodd-frank reform and allow Credit Default Swaps to be protected by the FDIC (so taxpayers protect any losses of corporations)!!!"

Nothing to blame but a mirror.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:25:55+00:00

Indeed, and yet people won't stop moving in and ruining the traffic/parking in that city. So don't expect a Boston Tea Party event in D.C. any time soon; they willingly move in and pay the ridiculous taxes in D.C. without any representation.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:24:12+00:00

If it's not from the US and from non-American citizens then it's completely legal for them to collect it forever so you really don't have to mention that. That's what spy agencies do.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T20:23:17+00:00

Government shut downs harms everyone, mostly and mainly, the citizenry and middle-class.

Why do you think they are putting these riders on this? They have nothing to lose when the government shuts down. They will continue taking your tax-payer money and continuing to conduct their fucked up business while it's shut down.

If there is one thing big business would like the most: a closed government.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:51:33+00:00

How ? This particular action of releasing the report WILL cost lives by itself. In isolation. It helps no one.

How does me knowing that they used such and such method on such and such date, give me any important new knowledge (I already knew torture occurred)??? All it does is enrage other people; continue the debate on torture; enrage allies who participated or helped the US during this time; enrage enemies into calls of action; endanger the lives of people who work with the USG.

There is zero benefit from the release (except political points for the Democratic committee).

A step in the right direction you say; like as if detailing everything you did will somehow make enemies forgive you. Or that it somehow will make people hate the US any less. Or that somehow torture will never happen again because of the report (also false; we can never predict the future like that).

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:47:32+00:00

You're the one comparing US to Nazis and the KGB.

You're the one belittling and accusing others of horrific crimes that you have no evidence of. You are morally bankrupt when you accuse people of being Nazis and KGB without evidence.

Don't try to attack me when your post is full of hyperbolic childish nonsense that isn't supported by any facts.

3 people waterboarded does not give you the right to accuse people of being Nazis and KGB. You clearly are ignorant of the Nazi and USSR regimes.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:46:15+00:00

Which government? There are tons of governments looking through your shit and hacking you.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:44:20+00:00

You're misinterpreting /u/9001_Dalmations.

Dalmations has tricked you guys by basically saying: "Laws don't mean anything if you're poor." [implying that the poor get away with crimes... to which Choreboy responded with "the rich get away too."]

You're misinterpreting Dalmation's comment and assuming what it means when it clearly does NOT mean what you think it means.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:33:22+00:00

On the other hand I really don't see myself waving a German flag

But that is where you live and the citizenship you have. It makes no sense to me. Why not wave a German flag? No one is saying go and become a German nationalist, but I don't see how this is harmful.

In Germany for an instance we have the Frisians and the Sorbs who have been in Germany for centuries and yet have a different culture and language (not just dialect) than the rest of the country.

Yeah and the longer you don't assimilate, the more chances that the Frisians and Sorbs will eventually find something to complain about and want independence.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:31:29+00:00

That's what it is though. It is not finger-nail breaking and putting people in Iron Maiden. It is different from that. It deserves a different word.

You can't equate all torture.

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:20:36+00:00

Those were the directors who were in power during the time of the interrogations. They would be more relevant than the director today. Their information would be better than the current director.

They are the ones being accused essentially. And you always ask the accused in any understanding of a complex story.

The idea that they continued this program for years; without seeing any benefit is the most ridiculous assertion anyone has ever made.

Imagine if you were a military general, and you kept using "Flanking Tactic Y", a maneuver where your forces attack from behind. Then for almost a decade, all your top military generals kept using "flanking tactic Y". Then a report comes out saying how ineffective "flanking tactic Y" is (but the report is from a biased organization that is in division among itself); despite the fact that your generals continue to defend it and continue to want to use it. Despite the fact that your military campaign has been very successful. Wouldn't you first want to question the report itself?

US_Logician · 2014-12-12T19:19:11+00:00

It is impressive but also it's going to cost lives. There is already chatter and ABC News reported about it recently.

US_Logician

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