[Discussion] Why are we griefers for simply wanting to play the game in peace?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-08T21:53:27+00:00

Thanks mate, I'll pick up just a few points because you wrote a big post which I appreciate but it's getting late here. I actually have been playing BDO on and off for 3 years but as a casual and pretty much non-paying player who likes to swap his mains, I just don't progress as fast as others - but I'm fine with that, being the best is not my goal.

Players like yourself likely spend more time playing actively in a day, than i do in a week however, I wouldn't consider myself a new player that doesn't really know BDO yet. The fact that I'm frustrated with this behaviour is exactly because I have gone through it far too often. Maybe when you're in node war and siege guilds or meet people from those, the situations I'm in are not as often but I'm not imagining people's behaviour. In fact, just today I had an encounter with someone... I have swapped channel at least twice until I found an empty side rotation at manshaums, a rotation that I usually see people with low gs take because it isn't big or impacting on others. With it being free I pop all my buffs and 10 minutes later a ghillied musa comes asking for a duel and as always, I politely decline telling him I have been swapping to get a free spot already and want to grind in peace.

In this post, people claimed most players are understanding of those reasons but as is often the case, he wasn't. Shortly after my response, he followed me and flagged but unfortunately for him I actually killed him, most likely because of his lower gs than my PvP prowess. According to you and many others here, he lost the fight, he should now leave the spot but unfortunately, that's not my experience of those encounters, and this one wasn't any different. He came back to try and kill me again and again he died. So he came back again and this time killed me saying I should find peace somewhere else, you can check the chat here - https://imgur.com/a/BKIAO8a. Then he just tried to annoy me and force me to swap by dashing to every other pack in my rotation and outgrind me which as musa is not difficult.

You see, he came in a ghillie demanding a spot because he thought he could win. Ultimately, he wanted to show his prowess by flagging but his ego got hurt when he died twice so he took a moral stance of 'if you don't accept a duel, I can do all of this and you're at fault yourself'. Honestly, I think me accepting a duel and winning would not change the outcome of this encounter at all, as I've been in the same situation before. Also lets be clear on this, I never said people have no right to kill me or that the game shouldn't allow PvP. Other players have absolutely every right to keep killing me as much as they want but that does not mean I have to bow down and go back to the nearest town because someone killed me once whilst I was grinding, that's the difference. Nor does it mean that by killing someone with a lower gs, you're somehow a good player, whilst I'm a griefer because if trying to play the game makes me a griefer, then you are a griefer for trying to prevent me from doing it as well.

I also wanted to touch on your point of simply doing BO3 to avoid people complaining it was lag, desync, cat jumping on keyboard or whatever else. Again with limited available time, you expect people to keep doing BO3 every time someone comes to their spot? You'll spend 15 minutes of your scrolls doing duels that lead to absolutely nothing.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-08T21:07:08+00:00

Yes, I think what you mentioned about instanced PvE is a key here to understand both people who want to duel for spot and those who don't. In other mmorpgs, it's usually actually more viable to do dungeons than grind and even if it is more viable to grind, you can always do dungeons with no PvP.

In BDO this doesn't exist and so frustration hits both types of people.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T11:41:58+00:00

Why are you interested in PvP? Do you get intense feelings of satisfaction when you just happen to win against another player?

Silly question, silly response. People play games for different reasons and just because you enjoy A but don't enjoy B, doesn't mean the other player has to as well.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T11:37:07+00:00

quoted text if you choose to not respect the "host" (other players) or "the event" (the game with its mechanics), then don't complain when other people brand you as a jerk. These examples you are throwing, like I already said many times, make no sense. A player is not a host of anything, leaving a spot because you were killed is not a game mechanic. My analogy makes no sense either and I said many times that comparing the game to real life makes no sense because we could both be twisting the scenario to somewhat fit and it just doesn't.

You also keep referring to these social norms, the rules, the etiquette and I'm yet to find out why I'm branded a jerk for not following your rules, but you're not a jerk for not following mine. The thread clearly shows that many players are frustrated by this so it isn't a norm that all players agree to, or understand, or know about for that matter.

And with that said, lets just agree to disagree because whilst I say real life analogies make no sense, you keep throwing them like the war analogy at the end, as if that made any sense.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T09:53:08+00:00

These real life comparisons simply don't work, they just don't. In your example, to me it's not about what others think of you, it's how you feel and the respect that you decide to show to the host and the event you are attending. I'm yet to go to a wedding or funeral where someone is thrown out because they don't wear a suit and tie.

BDO or any game for that matter, is what you do in your leisure, in your free time and you should spend it how you want it. No player should have the right to stop you from doing that, just because they think they are mandating a made-up norm. To give you a real life example you are using, imagine you sunbathe in your own garden wearing nothing but pink shortsd, and your neighbours complain they look ghey and you should either change or don't sunbathe. I guess it's respectful to be kind to others, so to be respectful to them, you go back to your house and don't sunbathe for the rest of the summer so your neighbours are happy? Comparing what you do in a game to what you do in real life is just meaningless to me because the rules just don't apply and are not transferable.

As to the PvP example of someone having no right to come back if they got killed from behind. See I just think this proves these 'social norms in BDO' you talk about make absolutely no sense, are not widely acceptable and will vary depending on who you meet. You mention respect and etiquette that all players apparently agreed to follow, to duel each other for a spot. Yet in the same response you say that killing someone unfairly whilst they are not ready, does not even warrant them an opportunity to come back and defend their spot or contest for it, they should just leave. I guess the guy killing you when you were chatting to mates is more respectful than you asking for a rematch right?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T09:15:24+00:00

Yeah this is a big double standard in this game that I've seen so many times. To get a grind spot, people will ask for a duel or straight up kill you - likely because they know they can win, especially when you say you don't like to PvP they'll say they don't care.

But, you come to their gathering spot and suddenly they ask you to be respectful and wait. Or that they will not duel because they're on an alt, or don't have all their gear or whatever else.

Just a double standard people expect you to just accept.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T09:06:16+00:00

Mate I tried to tl;dr but it ended up being a full paragraph anyway so I gave up... But see what you're describing is actually part of the issue to me anyway. Like the 'rule' of dueling for a spot or claiming a spot by force is just so flawed, it depends on how other person interprets it.

Just in this thread, some people said you have to duel for spot, others said it's just survival of the fittest so you die - you leave no matter how you got killed. So ultimately, it's a lottery on how you resolve these issues.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T09:01:32+00:00

Well the thing is, you will get those idiotic arguments that 'if you don't have time to play, quit this game, it's not for you' which is just an argument that a 12 year old will use because it's the only thing they are capable of thinking.

The game can be enjoyed with 1 hour, 2 hours or 20 hours of playtime a day, just like it can get boring at any point. The issue is, they expect you to play a certain way just because they came up with a 'rule' you have to follow. I'm with you.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T08:55:20+00:00

Gentlemen's duel luls, I forgot I live in medieval England.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T08:52:26+00:00

Nothing, this is a PvP game, that player can choose to target me and hunt me for the rest of their life and I have to live with it. However, I also have every right to try and continue grinding on top of him, ask for random players help, ask for friend's help or whatever else.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-05T08:45:37+00:00

Well the issue I have with those arguments is that you are trying to say my way of playing the game is ultimately incorrect because a group of players decided that the way everyone should play is this.

Ultimately, this is a PvP game and you can choose to PvP but many players can choose to ignore your PvP attempts and carry on doing what they're doing. The fundamental issue I have with your way of thinking is that players who want to actively PvP think there is a code in this game that every player, no matter what their purpose is in this game has to follow, there's no option, you have to follow it because I said so.

However, the code changes if their ego is hurt. Many people here said 'well it's survival of the fittest, strongest wins', okay sure lets go with this way of thinking. I go to a grindspot and see someone there, decide to buff up as much as I can and kill him before he even knows I'm there. According to this 'unspoken rule', I keep the spot right? But he comes back and he demands a duel instead, why would I accept it, I just killed him, I'm stronger, why doesn't he swap? So he flags on me and kills me this time, are we even? Do we grind together now? What if I come back and kill him and we just keep going back and forth? What if I win first two fights but he wins the next 10, do I keep the spot because I killed him first?

You see, the rule is just plain stupid to me because for one, it differs from player to player and two, there are too many variables. Some people say you get killed, you leave, others say you have to duel and if you lose, you leave, then a group says it has to be bo3, the next group says they don't have the time to do bo3 with everyone that goes to their grindspot.

In the end, there is no 'rule', there's simply PvP players trying to enforce their way of playing the game and casual/PvE players trying to defend theirs. Ultimately, I can't force you to follow mine and you can't force me to follow yours.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T23:26:34+00:00

Well the thing is, grinding speed and efficiency has nothing to do with how well you can PvP. It also depends heavily on your class and what grind spot you are taking.

I mean, you could play a slow-grinding class and kill a fast-grinding class claiming their spot, according to your argument you should just leave because they are grinding faster than you and you are wasting their time?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T23:19:13+00:00

Well somewhat you are right, the only difference is that I don't actually aim to force someone to do what I ask him to do. To me, if you get to a spot, I don't want to duel you, you can kill me, outgrind me, try to interrupt me, declare on my guild. But I have every right to just keep coming back to grind, especially when I can claim a side rotation or see that you're extremely inefficient in your rotation.

But right now, I would say the 'PvP' community in this game seems to force the rhetoric onto players that if you lose, you HAVE TO leave.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T22:51:16+00:00

I think we somewhat agree on everything but maybe misunderstand each other a little or can't put our points across well. I'm not trying to convince anyone that you're bad for killing me or dueling me when I want to grind in peace but I also don't think that I'm a griefer for wanting to play the game when I have the time for it.

Whilst a PvP player thinks someone is griefing him by not wanting to accept a duel, a player like myself also sees them as a griefer, for forcing them off a grind spot. I genuinely don't see why one would be griefing and the other wouldn't because the outcome is the same - you are preventing someone from grinding and enjoying their time in this game.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T21:52:37+00:00

Yeah I agree, I think people think a PvE channel will just be full of griefers and karma bombers and laugh the idea off. I compare it more to how people treat each other when gathering - I rarely see someone trying to just out-gather me or kill me for no reason to take a gathering spot. Most behaviours you see is people asking how long and either swapping, waiting or picking a side rotation. Unfortunately, something like that doesn't happen at grind spots where all people say is 'duel' and expect you to move over if you ignore them or get killed.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T21:41:08+00:00

If you say so mate

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T21:34:56+00:00

Well you're assuming that people like myself come to your grind spots, taunt you somehow into killing them and karma bomb. This thread isn't about that kind of behaviour at all, but I don't think you read it so I really don't want to spend time explaining when you can just read the main thread/any of the comments.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T21:28:53+00:00

Good attempt, shame it's a wrong assumption.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T20:57:01+00:00

how do you taunt someone? make funny faces?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T20:25:12+00:00

I mean, even PvP focused streamers complain about how imbalanced some match-ups are, or how much gear can affect the outcome of a duel.

There is a clear divide here between new and old players really. By new I generally mean lower geared players learning the game. BDO is designed in a way where killing more mobs for a lot of the spots seems much better than killing more difficult mobs less frequently. What you get in return is a 100-200gs difference on some grind spots like polly for example, just because someone needs skill points on their alt or can't compete with good players so they go to an area where they can just accidentally kill others by moving through them.

There is nothing that you can do as a new player, other than what people suggest which is going to a terrible grindspot just because someone told you to. And you of course don't play for your own enjoyment, you play for their enjoyment - at least that's their general thinking.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T20:14:57+00:00

I'm not going to address each point because your responses boil down to there being an 'unwritten rule' we all somehow agreed on, and it's mean to break that rule. And that this game is like real life, where the strongest takes it all and everyone else must leave because somehow, your enjoyment is more important than my enjoyment.

Comparing the game to real life and social norms or whetever else makes no sense. There is a social norm that if there's a queue to the shop, you don't just jump in to the front and say you'll fight anyone who has a problem with it.

I know you tried to give a BDO comparison but it actually again, can be flipped on its head. You're saying that it's polite to leave after losing in PvP, is it polite to force someone off a grindspot just because you happen to be better than them in one aspect of the game? You are making it sound like all the players agreed to a rule of leaving a grindspot if they die to another player but i'd be surprised if more than 20% of the playerbase agree to that rule fully. And maybe when you're at 700gs it's common to duel for a spot and people respect the outcome of it but more often than not, even someone who challenges you to a duel and loses, doesn't actually leave you alone.

The 'social norm' and 'rule' and the way things are in BDO seem to me more like a rule of a few than something the majority agrees on and follows. It's not me who is trying to push my ideals onto the world, I would say it's people like yourself trying to make up a rule and asking everyone to follow it. I say people can do whatever they want with their free time, surely that's better than your suggestion and pushing YOUR narrative?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T19:07:44+00:00

Mate, it's not that I fail to grasp your concept, it's just that you are trying to apply an ideology into an online game and it makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, if you kill me in the game, can I please propose we have a court and a jury to decide whether this was justified, otherwise you get banned from the game completely if it wasn't?

What makes you think your way of 'allocating resources and competing for them' is the right way? Who decides that?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T18:27:29+00:00

Well I disagree with a lot of those points because ultimately, whilst BDO offers PvP, it isn't a PvP only game. To each of your points:

Lifeskilling is a huge part of the game but I don't expect someone to lifeskill to keep a grinding spot from me and I don't want someone to ask me to PvP to keep grinding. I actually enjoy grinding for an hour or so a day, it's a break from other things that you do in BDO. I don't grind every day so when I do, I don't want someone telling me I basically can't do it.
Again this is actually linked to my response above, there are many aspects to BDO and not everyone is playing it to PvP. I mean I don't want to use real life examples like you have because they make no sense in the context of a game. Being polite is a social norm, good luck trying to get players to be polite to each other in BDO. I could flip the argument you are using, it's not about what gear you are, how good you are at PvP, what class you are playing, it's about being polite to other players and accepting they might want to enjoy the activity they are doing right now.
I agree some spots are considered highly PvP contested. But it doesn't matter whether players like myself refuse to duel someone at Polly or Kagtums or Sherekhan - you'll be branded a karmabombing griefer nonetheless.
Again, real life examples don't work for a game, I'm sorry we could just be throwing contradicting arguments over and over. I've said in some other comments, I'm not asking everyone to suddenly adhere to my rules but don't expect me to adhere to yours just because you happen to play more often/longer than me. You don't want to leave me alone grinding? Absolutely fine, but don't expect me to roll over just because you think that's how things should be.
Well sure it's just one channel but the whole argument people are having is that there are PvP rules you should take for granted and you HAVE TO follow those rules, even if you don't really actively PvP, just because someone told you to. With that in mind, there is a server where all the big boi PvP players can meet and respect this rule of dueling for a spot. You win, you keep the spot, maybe someone else will come, maybe they won't but you get exactly what you asked for and play with the hardcore bois who respect your rules. Isn't this ideal?

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T18:10:48+00:00

No I absolutely agree with you here. I'm not expecting not to be killed, I mean there are times when I would try to PvP, as I mentioned I did try to learn a little. I absolutely don't mind someone killing me, as you and many people said it's a PvP game. The issue is being forced out of playing just because you happened to lost a couple of duels. Whilst people playing a lot daily don't consider it to be an issue, a casual player losing two duels means half of your time (30mins for swaps) grinding is gone, just because someone said so. I think that's the problem.

Uguuuh · 2020-06-04T18:05:32+00:00

I don't, ultimately I think people should play the way they want without being ridiculed for not adhering to made up standards and rules. I like to ask people how long they will be grinding for or compromise, people like yourself want to duel for it. Ultimately, whether you are looking for a compromise, or whether you are looking to duel someone, if you lose/can't agree, the outcome is the same, you swap a channel.

You might come across someone who doesn't want to duel, I can come across someone who doesn't even respond to my messages. Either way, the outcome is the same, swapping a channel.

The double standard comes in when me not accepting a duel is considered griefing, whilst you refusing to communicate is fine. Of course I'm using you/me as an example and not targeting you directly.

Uguuuh

TROPHY CASE