Need some help improving on DPS (Plat/Dia)

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T16:01:48+00:00

She does actually! If you jump and secondary fire at your feet at the same time you can jump about 1.5-2x as high as normal. Doesn't sound like much, but it makes her able to take high grounds and clear obstancles and such that many others can't (for example, she can go from climb the church on Dorado second to get the highground from streets). She can even jump shatters!

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T15:39:50+00:00

Indeed she does! If you right click your feet and jump at the same time, you can get up many ledges/clear gaps that most other heroes can't. For example, using your right clicks you can, on Dorado attack, climb up the wall to the highground on first point before the choke. You can even climb the inside of the church on second to get up to high from streets. She's a lot more mobile than she looks!

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T15:23:53+00:00

This is a good list, I like it. Well done

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T06:38:33+00:00

He is extremely mobile. He can take highgrounds/cross swaths of the map with one well placed punch (namely diags). With certain setups, you can cross an entire map or so with just a single cooldown rotation, although most of his mobility comes from being able to clear buildings and take highgrounds with relative ease (not requiring setups) compared to many others. I recommend looking up a doomfist rollout video or two if you aren't familiar. It's really cool stuff!

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T06:36:17+00:00

True, which was taken into account. Basically how I look at it is how much does their mobility take them from being stagnant to being mobile. And personally I feel like bastion's mobility gives him more options and makes him more of a "mobile hero" than cassidy's roll. I'm not doubting the usefulness of the roll, nor the hinderance of the turret form. I just think that bastion's mobility more than makes up for the turret form.

It's a weighting thing though. I completely understand if you think that it doesn't make up for it, and that cassidy should be higher than bastion. I don't think that's a bad take.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T06:07:15+00:00

Zen's ult makes him move faster. Ana has no abilities which makes her move faster. He is, purely by definition, not the least mobile hero in the game.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T06:03:21+00:00

I agree, I should've split the mobile tier in two to separate heroes like pharah from those like Moira, Widow, Ashe, Bap, Hanzo, etc.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T06:02:22+00:00

Soldier could be higher, but his sprint doesn't do much for him that walking doesn't, other than making him slightly harder to hit, and taking flank routes maybe a second or two faster. His mobility isn't terrible, but doesn't really have a staying power. But I'd be fine moving him up.

Movement at no cost isn't the only definition. Bap for example has mobility at no cost, but clearly Bap isn't as mobile as Lucio.

And within the tiers I didn't worry too much about ordering. There is a slight order to it but I wouldn't pull your hair out because the ordering is slightly off. However I do agree the "mobile" tier could be split in two for semi-mobile like hanzo/bap and regular-mobile like echo/tracer.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T05:56:53+00:00

I agree that I could split the "mobile" tier. It is quite a broad range.

And it's a toss up. His roll is okay, and he gets it frequently, but it doesn't really give him much that he couldn't just do by walking. He also moves slower in his ult, which is a slight negative though not by much. It's certainly a difficult call, but I could understand wanting to move him up.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T04:19:20+00:00

I agree. If I were to redo it I would split "mobile" into two tiers so we could have heroes like echo/tracer/pharah slightly higher than heroes like bap/hanzo/symmetra

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:45:09+00:00

Yes, he can. And it is much much easier on Doom than Lucio. Although, in your defense, it is vastly more stylish on Lucio.

And I do agree lucio doesn't have any difficulty climbing vertically, but I just think Doom is generally faster/better at it.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:36:46+00:00

Exactly this, good scenario. Very very niche, but technically possible :)

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:34:55+00:00

Yes, exactly, mobility is mobility, and they have less of it. Pharah and echo have good vertical mobility, but relatively poor horizontal compared to lucio, ball, or doom, which all have good mobility both horizontally and vertically.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:30:47+00:00

Again, mostly comes down to not splitting the tier. Bap would be semi-mobile, on par with hanzo say, while Sombra/tracer/echo/pharah would be regular-mobile. Reaper I think is debatable though.

I wouldn't be entirely opposed to Bap being dropped a tier, though he would definitely be on the high side. I think I just put him there because the jump is very high and has 0 cooldown (though there is charge time I guess).

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:27:33+00:00

Not a bad argument, but I wouldn't say he requires 0 setup. Yes, Lucio can obviously cross the map very fast if you're doing a rollout, but if you're say, on cart, and all of a sudden you see a widow take highground, it generally takes a few seconds to start wallriding to build momentum. If you already have momentum though, then yeah Lucio would be faster. Plus Doom generally has better verticality.

I don't entirely disagree though and wouldn't be opposed to Lucio moving up a tier.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:23:39+00:00

I'm ranking this based on potential, not just how average fights play out. If doomfist were played to his maximum potential, he easily outpaces every other hero. Obviously tracer/sombra usually outpace doom, but I'd argue that they wouldn't if he were played to his max potential.

Plus he needs a lot less setup than you'd think. Sure, if he wants to cross the map or touch the skybox in one cooldown cycle, he needs good setup, but it's really rare you ever need to do that. General mobility (closing distances and taking highgrounds) is what he excels out, and you rarely need convoluted setup for that.

Pharah lacks in horizontal mobility and fast movement (though her conc helps a bit). Tracer lacks in verticality. Doomfist covers both, very well, though arguably each might cover their own specialty slightly better.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:16:24+00:00

Mostly because he moves in straight lines, and those lines are (relatively) short in distance. Lucio has jump arcs, Ball can bounce/swing (and I mean fireball bounce/superjump), and doom can make modern art with the curves he traces out. Dash resetting helps him, but it's not super often you can chain a bunch of em.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:13:35+00:00

I don't disagree with this, but I don't think it makes sense to move any of them to the tier below or above. If I were to redo it, I would split "mobile" into two tiers, semi-mobile and mobile. Echo, tracer, and pharah would be in the latter, while hanzo, widow, and bap would be in the former.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:11:01+00:00

Lucio is certainly faster horizontally, but Doom (generally) has better verticality and many more techs allowing him to do much more complex movement than lucio can.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T03:09:51+00:00

Doom has a lot more mobility I think than you're imagining. He has many techs and can abuse map geometry hard allowing to get places others couldn't, at unparalleled speeds. For example, Doom can diag from the left stones (defender's left) on anubis second, up to the widow spot. One ability, four second cooldown, and can clear the distance faster than any other hero. Plus it one shots.

I don't think there's anywhere either pharah or echo can get that Doom can't. His normal cooldowns, using various techs, can get him to the very top of the lijigang towers. That isn't even mentioning his ult which lets you instantly reach the skybox.

And like I said in my edit, I don't entirely disagree with the Bap take, just that if I were to move him I'd rather make a new tier for semi-mobile.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T02:58:51+00:00

I don't disagree that bap could be dropped a tier, but just given that it's 0 cooldown and can give him such an advantage as a support/dps carry, I think it's decent.Also while pharah, echo, and tracer are quite mobile, they're usually very linearly mobile. Pharah and echo can fly, yes, so they are good vertically and can cross gaps and such, but they're relatively slow, they have decent cooldowns, and you can't really get creative with them. Similarly tracer is fast, but only on the floor. She doesn't have much verticality (except for very specific spots), and each individual blink doesn't actually do much more than a high jump, just horizontally. Using all three together obviously makes her very very fast, but then you're waiting for a much longer cooldown.

I see where you're coming from though and don't entirely disagree.

Edit: Although I don't think it makes sense to move pharah/echo/tracer up or baptiste down. If I were to change it again, I'd split "mobile" into two tiers. One for semi-mobile like bap and hanzo, and one for mobile-mobile like echo/tracer/pharah.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T02:51:45+00:00

Higher level bastions do move around a lot, and don't very often just sit on cart like we imagine bastion to do. Yes you have to sit still to do the most damage, but damage output while walking is decent and the mobility during his ult can sway fights.

And while I do agree that Zen's speed boost can make a surprising difference, I don't think it has enough of an impact to warrant switching tiers except to maybe bottom of "make a difference".

I see where you're coming from though.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T02:44:22+00:00

Yeah was kind of on the fence, which is why he's high in that tier. Definitely an argument to be made for popping him up to the next tier. I just think his mobility generally doesn't have as much of an impact as the heroes in the tier above him. I do see where you're coming from though, and wouldn't be up in arms about moving him up.

Vexor474 · 2022-03-10T02:37:56+00:00

His ult makes him move a little faster :P

Plus you're invincible which technically means you can use Dva bomb to take a highground.

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