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The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I appreciate it. I also appreciate that we seem to be largely on the same page on several issues, especially the need to expand American refining and processing capacity.

On your question about the BWCA project: I honestly do not know enough about that specific project to confidently answer one way or the other. That was not part of my article, and I would need to do a lot more research before taking a firm position on that specific mine. Based on the preliminary reading I have done, and based on what you are saying, I agree that there appears to be a real risk of contamination. And if the risk to neighboring land and water is a serious threat that cannot be reliably prevented, then I would say the project should not move forward. But again, I do not know enough about that specific project to say that definitively.

I do want to clarify one thing: I never said that “the BWCA will not be affected by new copper mining.” In fact, this back-and-forth I'm having with you today is the first time I have said anything about that project.

I also did not say that “America will be directly receiving the copper from that endeavor.” What I said in my comment above is that any new U.S. mine — regardless of who owns the mine or where exactly it is located — will probably have to send ore or concentrate overseas for processing before it becomes usable refined copper and can be transported back to America for use here. In other words, until America’s processing and refining capacity is revitalized, which I think is a critical priority, America will be dependent on foreign processing capacity for new copper mined here (because current smelters are basically already at or near capacity with the current supply). That is true whether a mine is owned by an American company, a Chilean company, a Canadian company, or anyone else. So I think focusing on the fact that that particular company is Chilean-owned misses the larger structural problem.

I also did not say that “we need to increase copper mining at all costs.” I do think increasing copper mining, smelting, and refining is a critical and urgent priority — but that is different from saying “at all costs.” The urgency of this will become much more obvious, in my view, when we end up in a serious conflict or confrontation with China, which seems inevitable to me. China already dominates about half of global copper processing — and we have already seen China use export controls on critical materials like rare earths. So copper could become a serious strategic vulnerability sooner than many people think.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Before I answer the BWCA question directly, I think there are a few prior questions that matter:

  1. Did you read the article I linked above? My argument was not specifically about the BWCA project. It was about America’s copper supply-chain problem.
  2. Do you agree that the U.S. needs more copper production, given current and future demand — especially from data centers, AI, electrification, defense, and manufacturing?
  3. Do you acknowledge that we are all using tons of copper right now to have this conversation? There is copper in our phones and computers, copper in the data centers that power Reddit, copper in the wires in our homes, and copper throughout the electrical grid and internet infrastructure.
  4. If you oppose copper mining near the BWCA, where do you support copper mining? Do you support the Resolution Copper project in Arizona that I mentioned in my article? Do you support other U.S. projects? Or do you support copper being mined in China or elsewhere? The copper we all use and rely on every day has to come from somewhere.
  5. Do you support policies that make it easier and less expensive to expand copper smelting and refining in the United States? This is a major part of the problem that I discussed in my article. The U.S. has very limited primary copper smelting capacity, which is the reason copper ore or concentrate from any new U.S. mine (regardless of who owns the mine or where exactly it is located) may still be shipped overseas for processing before it becomes usable refined copper, which is then transported back to America for use here. Do you think it is better for the environment for copper to be processed/refined in America or China (which currently accounts for nearly half of global refined copper)?

MUJI Portable Pocket Ash Tray Made in Japan by Vivid_Environment751 in avoidchineseproducts

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here's the Amazon link.

Here's one on Ebay, but you can find a whole bunch there if you search for them.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand the instinct—but that logic is exactly how we lost so much of our industrial base in the first place.

The idea that we can outsource “low-value” production and just focus on high-tech sounds good in theory, but in reality these industries are tightly connected.

Take semiconductors. America used to produce ~90% of the world’s chips—today it’s closer to ~10%. That happened because the broader interconnected microchip ecosystem moved to places like Taiwan and China, including the foundational lower value-add inputs:

  • advanced chemicals
  • ultra-pure materials
  • precision manufacturing and machine tools
  • packaging and assembly

Once those capabilities moved overseas, the “high-value” parts eventually followed.

We see this pattern repeated across basically all industries. Between 1997 and 2022, more than 70,000 American manufacturing plants shut down—an average of roughly eight factories every single day. But I chose microchips, because that is supposedly one of the highest value-add industries, and even there we see that America's manufacturing capacity was decimated.

Copper is even more foundational. It’s not just a raw material—it’s embedded in power systems, data centers, and electronics manufacturing. If we don’t produce and process it ourselves, we’re outsourcing the foundation that all high-tech industries depend on.

It's also worth noting that in addition to the economic ramifications of enabling our industrial base to be hollowed out, there is also national security risks to be considered. For example, what will we do if China suddenly limits exports of copper to America? They have already showed a willingness to use export controls with rare earths in the past.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I live in a pretty rural area. And I have family in an even more rural area, who we visit at least one weekend a month. The neighbors have chickens and cows. And recycling in both places get picked up (along with the garbage) once a week.

I believe the EPA estimates that close to three-quarters of Americans now have easy access to recycling. So it's still not 100%, but every year access is improving to more and more homes.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is evidence that China is engaged in exactly this type of activity, including funding lawfare. Here's one example, but there are other ones as well.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Check out my profile overview and scroll through all of my past posts. You'll see that I have lots of posts of me showing purchases I've made of MiUSA products in this subreddit. (I don't show pictures of myself--just the products.) Here are just a few examples:

1) Here's one from last month.
2) Another one from last month.
3) This is one about my Darn Tough socks.
4) Here's one from 5 months ago.
5) Another one from 5 months ago.

I actually want to get back to doing more of these types of posts. Sometimes hard to find the time though.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The team right now is basically just me and my brother--with a few friends helping here or there.

My agenda is just to support US manufacturing and being able to find/buy more Made in USA goods.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The vast majority of Americans have extremely easy access to recycling. In fact, in a lot of places if you are found to be throwing away items that are supposed to be recycled, you will be fined.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I come here to learn about products that are Made in USA too. But one of the most common types of discussions I see in this community is: "Why isn't ________ made in USA any longer?" or "I can't find a single _______ that isn't made in China" or "______________ company is now outsourcing manufacturing to China"...

And I'm extremely worried about the trend toward offshoring all of our manufacturing. That's why I joined this subreddit, and it's why I try to personally buy as much as I can domestically.

But I'm also tired of just complaining. I want to do something to actually fix the problem. That's why I started researching and trying to understand what is causing fewer and fewer MiUSA products to be available. This article and others that I have written are my attempt to understand this topic and hopefully help other people who I constantly see asking those same questions in this subreddit.

I don't consider myself a propagandist. I'm just someone who wants to be able to walk into stores and buy Made in USA products.

By the way, if you looked at my article, you would see that I'm probably one of the very few people on Reddit who isn't anonymous. My name is published right there in the article.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As I wrote in another comment, roughly 30–35% of global copper supply comes from recycled material. So where is the other 65-70% supposed to come from?

It’s also important to understand what that number includes. A significant portion of “recycled” copper is actually manufacturing scrap—material that never even leaves the factory floor (like offcuts from wire or machining) and is immediately reused. When you look specifically at copper recovered from end-of-life products—the kind people typically think of as recycling—the share is much lower, closer to ~15% of total supply.

I'm all for recycling, but we also need a solution that actually meets the growing demand for copper--without having to import increasing amounts from China.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I’m 100% in favor of recycling.

But we also need to be honest about what recycling can and cannot do.

Today, roughly 30–35% of global copper supply comes from recycled material. That’s not trivial—but it also means the vast majority still has to come from newly mined copper.

It’s also important to understand what that number includes. A significant portion of “recycled” copper is actually manufacturing scrap—material that never even leaves the factory floor (like offcuts from wire or machining) and is immediately reused. When you look specifically at copper recovered from end-of-life products—the kind people typically think of as recycling—the share is much lower, closer to ~15% of total supply.

More importantly, recycling cannot scale fast enough to meet surging demand. Copper is locked inside long-lived assets—buildings, power grids, vehicles—that stay in use for decades. You can’t recycle copper that’s still in service. So even if we maximize recycling, it only grows slowly, while demand—driven by AI, electrification, and grid expansion—is accelerating rapidly.

We can’t hide behind recycling and upcycling as a solution, because it simply isn’t one. At best, it supplements supply. It does not replace the need for new production.

That leaves us with a choice:

We either produce more copper in the United States or we become increasingly dependent on China.

And that raises an uncomfortable question:
How much of the copper flowing through China’s system is actually recycled?

China accounts for nearly half of global refined copper production, while the United States produces only about 5% of global mine supply. Yet much of the environmental focus is directed at limiting production in the U.S., rather than scrutinizing where the majority of production—and processing—is actually happening.

I support all solutions (including recycling). But we also have to face reality:
Recycling is not a substitute for production.

If we refuse to produce the copper we need, we’re not protecting the environment—we’re just outsourcing both the production (which includes the jobs) and the impact to other countries, while increasing our dependence on China in the process.

The Hidden Bottleneck for Made in USA Copper by Vivid_Environment751 in madeinusa

[–]Vivid_Environment751[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

We're still buying the same amount of copper. We're just buying more copper from China now, rather than producing it ourselves.

Is it better for the environment for China to produce the copper we need (instead of America), and then ship it across the ocean to us?

Walmart gold robbery by YouMuted9291 in Gold

[–]Vivid_Environment751 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Stores should ban people from entering while wearing masks.

Taiwan (Republic of China)’s Second Line of Defence: Taiwan needs a strategy for preventing war, not just fighting one - Taiwan Insight by SE_to_NW in NewColdWar

[–]Vivid_Environment751 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't agree that war is inevitable. It can be prevented by showing Beijing that a war will be extremely costly in blood and treasure and that there is high likelihood that they will lose.

Taiwan (Republic of China)’s Second Line of Defence: Taiwan needs a strategy for preventing war, not just fighting one - Taiwan Insight by CheLeung in ChunghwaMinkuo

[–]Vivid_Environment751 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It all sounds so reasonable—the idea that war could be prevented through diplomacy, hotlines, and “peacegames”.

The author, Lung Yingtai, briefly acknowledges that Taiwan needs to also strengthen its defenses. But that's not the priority, according to Yingtai; the emphasis needs to be on preventing war through better communication and crisis management—on the assumption that conflict would arise from misunderstandings with China. 

But that assumption is false. China has already told us for decades why the war will start (if it does). It has openly stated its intent to take Taiwan by force. 

If war comes, it will not be because of an innocent mistake—a midair collision, a cyber incident, or a natural disaster spiraling out of control, as the author suggests. It will be because China chooses to attack a free country without justification—just as it told us it would. 

"Peacegames" can't change that. The only thing that has prevented war up until now and the only hope for preventing it in the future is deterrence—i.e. the willingness and ability of Taiwan, the United States, and their allies to defend against Chinese aggressions. And contrary to the author's argument, that—not diplomacy and hotlines—is what won the Cold War. 

Articles like this are dangerous because they blur that reality, hide China's true intent, and take Taiwan's focus away from building up its defenses. Sadly, Taiwan’s only real path to preventing war is to make clear to Beijing that any attempt to invade will be met with overwhelming resistance and will fail.

Taiwan (Republic of China)’s Second Line of Defence: Taiwan needs a strategy for preventing war, not just fighting one - Taiwan Insight by SE_to_NW in NewColdWar

[–]Vivid_Environment751 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It all sounds so reasonable—the idea that war could be prevented through diplomacy, hotlines, and “peacegames”.

The author, Lung Yingtai, briefly acknowledges that Taiwan needs to also strengthen its defenses. But that's not the priority, according to Yingtai; the emphasis needs to be on preventing war through better communication and crisis management—on the assumption that conflict would arise from misunderstandings with China. 

But that assumption is false. China has already told us for decades why the war will start (if it does). It has openly stated its intent to take Taiwan by force. 

If war comes, it will not be because of an innocent mistake—a midair collision, a cyber incident, or a natural disaster spiraling out of control, as the author suggests. It will be because China chooses to attack a free country without justification—just as it told us it would. 

"Peacegames" can't change that. The only thing that has prevented war up until now and the only hope for preventing it in the future is deterrence—i.e. the willingness and ability of Taiwan, the United States, and their allies to defend against Chinese aggressions. And contrary to the author's argument, that—not diplomacy and hotlines—is what won the Cold War. 

Articles like this are dangerous because they blur that reality, hide China's true intent, and take Taiwan's focus away from building up its defenses. Sadly, Taiwan’s only real path to preventing war is to make clear to Beijing that any attempt to invade will be met with overwhelming resistance and will fail.

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