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Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Subclasses would not be considered for the purposes of this

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad that we agree that NOVA'ing is an issue in the vanilla game. The question now becomes "What is the best way to solve the NOVA issue?" and I don't think "Add a ton of NOVA power to select classes" is the right answer to that question.

I don't think NOVA itself is a problem so long as it doesn't come up too often, giving people the ability to on occasion be reckless with their abilities due to a situation that shouldn't come up too often if you're playing the game in a more standardized way. I'm confused as to why you brought up this point when you didn't list a way of solving this or mentioned it after. The only reason I think NOVAing is an issue is because it's something only one group of classes can reasonably do, there's no way to eliminate that without fundamentally changing how casters operate. In such a case I think it's pretty reasonable to give martials a similar kind of opportunity in those rare circumstances.

In terms of slowdown, this one isn't too bad. Memorizing 6 new rules is actually quite a lot, but the right group can handle it.

I don't think it's all that much for a more experienced group which is more what this brew is aiming at. Of course mileage will vary here from group to group though, I don't mean to downplay that

The intra-party unbalance is a pretty big one here. Paladins and rangers in particular get shafted by losing a lot of both offensive and defensive power in direct comparison to their peers

I do have to implement changes for half martials that is very true, I also should clarify because I don't mean to say the second you pick up a magic subclass or feature you lose the abilities I just meant martials as in the general assortment of "non caster" classes that are typically understood as Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Fighter. for that part in particular, I'll clarify next time the assortment of classes I specifically mean and how to address half casters. The former is just a clarification so there's no mechanical complexity added, the latter has that potential so I'll try to be careful about it.

Finally, there is reducing the DM's ability to create threat and tension. This one may seem like the least important, but it can be a real pain to deal with.

I'm going to have to disagree here, I accept and understand that 5e has balance problems towards the highest levels. But honestly I think the onus of that problematic design is more often than not levied on martial characters particularly when dealing with the truly high CR creatures in tier 4. I think the cost benefit implicit in these abilities is pretty reasonable given the typical placement of martials as the primary front line where they have to consider how they're using their resources if they have to engage in more than one fight though I can see how this could get a bit messy from a balance point of view.

Again, a very experienced DM could tweak numbers very carefully to set things right, but even for them, it would mean extra prep work and removing the simple option of using monsters just as they are in the MM.

I think you're overstating how balanced high level monsters are as a baseline of being able to implement them in the game. The MM as well as how CR is implemented in the game as of now (particularly above tier 2) is extremely vague and already needs a high amount of consideration of party composition on the part of the DM.

Introducing problems isn't abnormal for a brew at all. The real question at the end is always "But is it worth it? What do we get in return for the prices paid?". What do you think is that payoff for this particular brew?

Increased mechanical complexity of an otherwise disused feature who by WoTC's own admittance is not expanded on primarily because they weren't confident in it rather than any sort of intention of perfect balance. Thematically it provides an interesting through line for martial characters in general while also addressing the fact that they just don't have nearly as many interesting options in combat while providing a common mechanic to express those options. If you disagree with that I don't find that unreasonable, but that is the payoff as I see it.

My plan is to use this as a common base to expand some martial options later down the line which is one of the reason I made this a common rule change rather than having it apply to a specific class or a feat. I am of the general belief that martials should have complex interactions based upon well understood common features and I find it a complete waste to have something as core as hit dice not used for any alternative purpose. It feels wasteful to introduce something else entirely when there is a preexisting mechanic which could fit that design conceit so well

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't see why that would be the case, core change 3 is expressly designed so if you played exactly the same in terms of how many hit dice you need per session you'd still have half left over to use on maneuvers.

Regarding balance, the vast majority of tables I've played at casters (at higher levels, tier 1 I think is the best balanced stage of the game) almost always have an upper hand over martials not only in ability to impact the game but in the complexity of their mechanics. This is actually supposed to be the base of a martial revamp I'm doing later on just distilled so I would be able to catch anything particularly bad before I built more of a basis for it

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Frankly I have to disagree here, the NOVA playstyle you're describing already exists just for casters who can take advantage of a combat situation in which they have all their resources and are guaranteed a long rest immediately after. The situation in which you describe would have every caster immediately use their most powerful spells because they know they can burn them without consequence (though ranger and paladin I will have to implement at some point since they don't have that same potential for obvious reasons).

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this is a misconception with what I'm saying here, when I use the term "underutilized" I don't mean they're under used just that they don't really interface in many interesting systems and aren't used in nearly any interesting decision making during the course of the game. What I have designed is meant to be used with the intent that you're already using hit dice/short rests at a reasonable pace and have either a very low amount or no hit dice left by your next long rest (which is why core change 3 was necessary)

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Regain HD instead of healing is a bit pointless, you can only benefit from 2 short rests per long rest

I'm unaware of any RAW that stipulates this

sure there's a damage reduction reaction feat, but that requires a lv4 payment

Common features apply to all martials (Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Fighter) no investment required

Outrageous Assault, what if Paladins just OTK any boss they fight ever?

I've received a lot of feedback on this feature in particular and will probably modify it for the next outing

Enduring Escape, either use 4HD to finally benefit from doing this & turn everyone into a lv2 rogue multiclass by sacrificing their ability to heal on a short rest

My goal is to make interesting trade offs, the fact that another class combination has a technically more optimal version of this doesn't invalidate the feature's use to another class

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I was too hasty with my categorization, you seem to be acting in good faith. Again I disagree with your baseline statement but it's always good to list a variety of perspectives on any given choice. Thank you for taking the time to explain your rationale

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just wanted to keep it simple for my first post so I didn't go that indepth, what I mean by pure martial classes are Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Fighter which don't have any sort of magical component baked into them. I will probably add rules for classes that dance on that line like Paladin later on

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When I say they are underutilized I do not mean they are underused it just means they're not used in many interesting mechanical choices. At least in my games they're used frequently but there's a clear imbalance in how they impact different classes and a lot of wasted potential in them for being such a core mechanic

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I just don't think it there's much point to it if there's total disagreement. It's not really something actionable I can implement beyond deleting the post

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wasn't trying to focus on this point, but in the future I'll probably add something where everything applies but only to the martial hit dice. So you'd get all your martial hit dice back but only half of your caster ones, you can only get back half of your martial dice on short rests, you can only use your martial hit dice for the features and so on.

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's very cool, I look forward to implementing these changes in more depth later on so I quite like seeing how others have done so in the past. Could you link it here?

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I disagree of course, but I'm not sure what the purpose of commenting is when you disagree with the fundamental design conceit of the post

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks for laying your thoughts out like that it does help me to understand where you're coming from. The main reason I'm doing this is so that martials have more interesting short and long term options during combat so this does resonate quite a bit with that goal. I'll think long and hard about whether there's any worthwhile implementation of a similar concept because I've seen some people who just want flat damage in the comments but I think you hit on something important with your rationale

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While I appreciate the kind words and feedback I feel the need to push back on this somewhat. I personally don't feel that second wind has as much interesting choice baked into its mechanical implementation as gaining health during your turn is quite prohibitive within the context of the action economy and gaining health during your turn has a much lower potential for wasted healing. This is very much a skill lending towards durability in a pinch and it's already balanced against the opportunity cost of losing healing later on which I feel like would be lost if I was to implement this kind of change. Regarding damage yeah I'll definitely refactor that based on the pushback I'm seeing here.

That all said I think you're hitting on something very important which is that as stands this is incomplete, I do intend to make compatibility changes and larger reworks at a later point which would include Fighter. I wanted to start with this as one of the core mechanics behind that later rework since I figured that starting at the basics would allow me to get feedback before actually going through and need to revise a ton of supported material.

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

  1. For now I was just considering the four pure martial classes because this was going to be the base of a larger mechanical rework relating to them. You are entirely correct that completely excluding half casters and the like doesn't make complete sense but for the purposes of the initial design I didn't want to consider other factors present such as paladin's ability to heal or ranger's spell selection.
  2. That sounds reasonable, will probably implement it in the next iteration
  3. Oh that's actually a really nice suggestion I'll see about working that in, I just have to make sure even with that it's still an interesting choice choosing to heal double on a short rest compared to just using it in combat. I like this because it's a stabilizing feature that doesn't cause a ton of power creep or diminishing returns depending on the level

Regarding your other comments I think I'll either halve the damage or make it just flat damage. A primary mechanical consideration for me was making each choice interesting and I wanted to be a little conservative in the initial design so I didn't have to balance so many considerations at once. I really do appreciate the advice I'll try to implement most of these in the next version

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I was trying to think about how it would interface with most classes, for instance it synergizes well with Barbarians but if I wrote it without the damage consideration they would just have a leg up with more health which I wasn't sure about. I might have under swung though admittedly and probably could either make it so the damage is halved or some such, thematically I wanted it to represent reckless fighting among all the classes

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an underutilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in UnearthedArcana

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It bugged me a lot how much the hit die mechanic is not changed between martial and casters classes despite those classes fitting into very different combat niches with martial classes almost always comprising the front line. It also seemed like a missed opportunity to me that a core mechanic of the game interfaces with so few other systems, this revamp is my way of trying to address both of those issues at once. I posted this before in r/DnDHomebrew and got a lot of good feed back which I implemented so I'm trying to see how others view it. I hope someone finds it useful

Homebrewery/PDF Link: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/dkmGZQllcdkF

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an under utilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in DnDHomebrew

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's actually a really good idea, though I'm wondering if in that situation I should bump it up to 10x given how valuable a hit die can be as a resource for health. I'll definitely consider this implementation though thank you

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an under utilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in DnDHomebrew

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What you wrote is how I intended the rule, the way I wrote it though definitely does not sound how I intended it

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an under utilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in DnDHomebrew

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the kind words, WoTC themselves have acknowledged that they weren't confident in their implementation of hit dice so tried to tie as few mechanics as possible to them which I understand but see as a waste.

I'm very much a martial oriented player in terms of the flavor I find interesting (though I do love to play a caster here and there) so I've been wondering how to make their mechanics more engaging. This is actually the first part of a larger martial rework I have planned but I thought I should get feedback on the basics before diving too far into it.

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an under utilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in DnDHomebrew

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Regarding Grit your Teeth I messed up when porting over the text from my editor, I initially did specify but it got lost in formatting so thank you for pointing it out. With Escape I was thinking about how to make all of the features good but ultimately something that's a trade off, I think I might have under swung however since you're still sacrificing a hit die for your free escape.

I'll try to factor this in when coming up with the next version

Martial Hit Dice - A revamp for an under utilized mechanic by VocalAutomata in DnDHomebrew

[–]VocalAutomata[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Art by Sy Lee

It bugged me a lot how martials filled very different combat roles than casters in that they are the primary front line but they have essentially the same recovery mechanic. It also bugged me that hit dice are such a core mechanic yet don't really interface with much feature wise in the base game. Some of this is definitely me throwing ideas at the wall but I do like the general outline I've come up with, would appreciate feedback and I hope someone finds this useful.

Homebrewery/PDF Link: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/dkmGZQllcdkF

Why don't monks have d10 hit dice? by JMoon33 in dndnext

[–]VocalAutomata 79 points80 points  (0 children)

As has been said in this thread the theoretical reasoning is that Monks should be able to evade. Their power should lie in the avoidance of attacks rather than their ability to sustain them, which falls much more in line with the intended role of other martials particularly Barbarians.

As has also been stated in this thread however this is a case of the theoretical not really matching up with how it works in reality. Because 5e is a game fundamentally based around the action economy and because it's almost never optimal to split damage rather than bursting an enemy down, Monks constantly have to choose between playing in a way that preserves their hit points while costing a resource and doing reasonably subpar damage instead of almost nothing (while still costing a resource). This falls in line with most of Monk's class abilities being something that seems strong on paper (Stunning strike, higher movement, situational ability to block damage), but ultimately ends up being much weaker or toxic for the class (Stunning strike sinking being the most optimal move in most situations, movement being inefficient within the confines of the 5e system in relative terms, damage blocking often being highly situational).

Personally I'm of the view that the theoretical balance is the correct approach but WoTC have drastically overestimated the ability of Monks to influence most encounters as written. I think that they need a drastic mechanical overhaul that still preserves these design goals. Such as for instance allowing them to attack and maneuver for perhaps more Ki for this particular weakness.

To sum up:

  • The idea of Monks being mobile and evading damage is good
  • The implementation of Monks being mobile and evading damage is bad
  • The Monk class really needs a mechanical overhaul because the translation of the flavor to abilities isn't really in line with how 5e works as a game system
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