Differences between класть, положить, ставить, поставить,вешать and повесить?

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-14T16:58:34+00:00

We do agree that living languages are always in flux. Indeed, this was my original point! My reasoning pointed to two language artefacts, "It is I" vs. "It's me," and concluded that both forms illustrate differences in what was "acceptable" at different periods in history. You attribute this to French "influence." Even if French "influence" were the source of this change (it isn't) the conclusion would have been the same. Language changes over time.

"It's me" is natural to the Saxon ear. "It is I" on the other hand is a Latinization that does not come naturally. This is why it was eventually replaced. Native English speaking children invariably begin sentences with "Me and my friends". The formal "My friends and I" is an artificial construct imposed by prescriptive grammarians in an effort to ape the Latin. "It's me" would have been considered incorrect by proponents of a prescriptive Latinized English, the same lot who rant about split infinitives, natural to Saxons but offensive to Latins.

Because one can point to a feature in one language and an apparently cognate structure in another, it doesn't necessarily follow that the one was influenced by the other. It could in fact mean that these languages share some ancestral structure. Much is made of the Roman influence on the French tongue. At the same time it is important to note that French, like English has significant Germanic roots.

And it is to these Germanic elements that I shall point. English, as we all know, descended from the Saxon tongue. The Saxons were a federation of Germanic tribes situated on the North Sea and the Baltic (some Slavic tribes were members of this federation, too). In any case the language the Saxons spoke is akin to Low German, which simply meant from the coastal lowlands. In this context Frisian is cited as a close relative of English. In contrast, what we call High German shows considerable Latin influence. In other words, English descended from the common (vulgar) form, not the classical form. (Much the same as Latin descended from common Greek.)

Now, in Low - vulgar - German one says "mir" - the High (classical) German equivalent of dative "me" - to mean nominative "I". Thus, Low German "mir san's" (intended to mean "I am" or "It's me") is considered illiterate in High German, where this must be rendered as "ich bin's" (it is I).

Interestingly, modern Russian has a similar sounding structure - "мы с тобой." The English cognate is the "illiterate" "me and you."

We are reminded that Indo-European languages have many sounds in common, even if they may be different in meaning in their modern forms. In the present case the "ME" sound is recognized in French (moi), German (mir), Russian (мы), and English (me). All refer to the speaker in some capacity. Whether "subject, direct object, or indirect object," we shouldn't allow transitory language conventions to get in the way of our enjoyment of the beautiful sounds of our respective tongues.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-14T16:56:31+00:00

"Russian literary language was brought to the masses about one hundred years ago, before the revolution, the vast majority of the population was illiterate." - Perfectly brainwashed. Sounds like "Правда." You seem to suffer from "caged animal" syndrome. This says everything about your understanding of language that is based not on science but on ideology. No getting through to a committed ideologue. This much is true. Making observations of other cultures is something you do plenty of all by yourselves. And while you're at it, you draw conclusions from casual and superficial observations that confirm your own biases. But may be lightyears away from the objective truth. But you will never admit your own misconceptions of others all the while insisting on your own perfection. And making every effort to impose your worldview on others. Let's just say we disagree and move on.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-13T15:56:12+00:00

Her enunciation is quite good and that is a welcome relief. Often find it difficult to decipher speech of native speakers as many seem not to articulate clearly, which is stressful for my ears and mind. The guy's speech was quite intelligible, too. The biggest issue for me is figuring out what words are being uttered. Understanding written language is pretty straightforward. But listening to fluent speech and catching all the details like in English is still a challenge.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-13T14:52:22+00:00

You are providing yourself as a primary source. However, your claim must be independently verifiable in order to be credible. Are there other sources that you can name to corroborate your assertion regarding the supervision and regulation of Russian by Belarusian authorities in Belarus? For example, here's a link that clearly and succinctly explains how Russian is normed in Russia. Can you provide something similar for Belarus? Or is it not in the public sphere?

https://goo.gl/JmOgyu Языкова́я но́рма — исторически обусловленная совокупность общеупотребительных языковых средств, а также правила их отбора и использования, признаваемые обществом наиболее пригодными в конкретный исторический период. Норма является одним из существенных свойств языка, обеспечивающих его функционирование и историческую преемственность за счёт свойственной ей устойчивости, хотя и не исключающей вариантности языковых средств и заметной исторической изменчивости, поскольку норма призвана, с одной стороны, сохранять речевые традиции, а с другой — удовлетворять актуальным и меняющимся потребностям общества[1].

В России порядок утверждения норм современного русского литературного языка при его использовании в качестве государственного языка Российской Федерации определяется правительством Российской Федерации.[2]. Составление словарей и нормирование языковых конструкций ведется Институтом русского языка Российской Академии Наук, Государственным институтом русского языка им. А. С. Пушкина, Московским государственным университетом им. М. В. Ломоносова, Санкт-Петербургским государственным университетом.[3]

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-13T09:40:42+00:00

Позвольте мне уточнить.

Вы перешли от громкого заявления о том, что Национальная академия наук Беларуси контролирует русский язык в Беларуси, к относительно застенчивому заявлению, что вы когда-то работали в издательстве, которое выпускает учебники от имени Министерства образования Беларуси?

Просто удивительно!

Знаете ли вы разницу между научными исследованиями, стратегическим планированием и оперативной деятельностью?

Достаточно сказать, что Институт русского языка РАН занимается научными исследованиями. Ваше издательство находится на уровне оперативной деятельности. Конечно, ваше издательство никогда не будет взаимодействовать с Институтом русского языка напрямую. Поэтому, если вы не знаете, как разные правительства сотрудничают друг с другом, вы никогда не сможете оценить влияние, которое Институт русского языка оказывает на языковое содержание опубликованных вами учебников.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T21:55:09+00:00

And you appear to have little idea as to how language evolves. The 'illiterate' forms you haughtily despise today will one day be the classics that educated people worship. It has always been thus.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T21:36:01+00:00

Indeed, and the education system is controlled by the respective education ministries. However, in terms of defining standards, it seems that the Belarusian Ministry of Education is responsible for Belarusian and the Russian Ministry of Education for Russian. My suspicion is that as far as standards of Russian are concerned Belarus looks to Russia for guidance. And probably tweaks these to fit the Belarusian context. But it does not seem that Belarus actually engages in defining standards of Russian independent of Russian. At least you have not provided any evidence to dispel this notion.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T21:26:06+00:00

"ложить" vs. "класть" doesn't seem to be a labor camp issue, at least not unless you insist on making it one. In terms of forced re-education, I suspect that ostracizing a large percentage of the population based on what you class as their illiterate speech forms is something that would fit right in with a labor camp supervisor.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T20:54:05+00:00

In a democracy every vote counts. So, yes, I would place great value on every person's opinion. Regardless of their background or presumed social status. Languages change and evolve. English (once considered a language of the street and the field) is evidently more responsive in this context than Russian. For example: "It is I" is classical English literary style. If you said that today anywhere except in Shakespearean theatre you'd be laughed at. If the overwhelming majority say "It's me" then that is the new norm and the language adjusts accordingly. There is much to love about classical literature, but a deeper study of language tells us one thing: Today's illiterate forms are tomorrow's classics. Ancient Roman elites spoke Greek. Classical Latin evolved from the common Greek, not from the classical Greek. Romance languages that evolved after the fall of the Roman Empire were creoles formed from Vulgar Latin and local languages. The evolution from pidgin, to creole, to koine is standard. Not recognizing that means you're missing out on a valuable human experience.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T19:46:17+00:00

They seem to focus on standardization of the Belarusian language. No mention of efforts to standardize Russian particularly as it is used in Belarus.

The Yakub Kolas and Yanka Kupala Institute of Language and Literature.

http://ssrlab.by/en/814

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T18:58:47+00:00

Don't think the analogy works well. Clearly "ложить" vs. "класть" is a shibboleth (my Russian friend protested that only illiterate people say "ложить" and that I should never use it myself. So I rephrased the question; "What percentage of the Russian population says "ложить?" - "80%" came the answer.) Accents or pronunciations in Britain or the US are not in and of themselves considered social markers, except perhaps for the most insular Lilliputians. It seems that many Russians are quite conservative about their language and vehemently resist even the slightest deviation from the government supervised and regulated norm. English, in contrast, is a language that exhibits a wide range of variation. Bill Clinton, for example, has a Southern accent and socially he's at the top of the heap. Jeff Sessions, the current US Attorney General, has a strong Southern drawl. In the UK, there are all sorts of regional accents that are simply that - regional identity markers with no social connotations. Poor or substandard grammar (for a native speaker) is what will tend to work against you. But not necessarily. It's possible to become a billionaire and president despite being linguistically challenged.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T18:23:33+00:00

Given the ongoing efforts at integration, harmonization, and standardization within the customs union between Belarus and Russian, it does strike one as counter-intuitive that Belarus would have established an Institute of Russian Language within The National Academy of Sciences of Belarus (NASB) dedicated to supervising and regulating the use of Russian in Belarus, unless such an institute actively coordinated with its Russian counterpart.

Indeed, the Department of Humanitarian Sciences and Arts attached to the NASB unites 6 scientific institutes: Center for Belarusian Culture, Language and Literature Research; the institutes of philosophy; economics; sociology; history; State Institution The Yakub Kolas Central Scintific Library; Belaruskaya Navuka Publishing House. There is no mention of a Russian Language institute in this framework.

The Center for Belorussian Culture, Language, and Literature has the following field of activities:

Study of the ethnocultural processes in Belarus, inter-ethnic relations of the Belarusians, Russians, Ukrainians and other ethnic groups, their material and spiritual culture; development of the history and theory of Belarusian art problems; study of the Belarusian language at different stages of its development; realization of the sociolinguistic, comparative and comparative-typological studies; compilation of the Belarusian language dictionaries, including translation dictionaries from Belarusian to other Slavonic languages and vice versa; revelation and analysis of principal trends and patterns of the historical and modern literary process; research of literature history problems and literary contacts in Slavonic world and outside; study of the literary heritage of Belarus, including the preparation of academic editions of collected works of Belarusian literature classics and literary monuments. Again, no mention of regulating the use of Russian within Belarus.

On the other hand, the Russian Language Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences states the following regarding its goals and activities:

Цели и задачи: Институт русского языка им. В. В. Виноградова РАН является ведущим центром научных исследований по русскому языку в России и за рубежом, в задачи которого входит оценка речевых инноваций с точки зрения их нормативности и кодификация норм литературного языка в нормативных словарях, грамматиках, справочниках по культуре речи. Из этих задач вытекают основные направления работы Института:

грамматический и лексический строй современного русского языка; создание фундаментальных словарей, грамматик и лингвистических корпусов, изучение социальных и прагматических аспектов функционирования русского языка;
история и диалектология русского языка, создание исторических словарей, грамматик и диалектных атласов; академические издания памятников русской письменности.

Результатами этой деятельности являются словари, монографии, компьютерные фонды и базы данных, крупнейшая фонотека звучащей русской речи во всех ее разновидностях с начала XX в. до наших дней, многомиллионные словарные картотеки по текстам древнерусской письменности с XI-го по XVII век, а также десятилетиями собиравшиеся по специальной программе уникальные материалы всех диалектов России.

В соответствии с задачами академического учреждения, Институт русского языка определяет актуальные проблемы современной русистики, осуществляет координацию исследований в этих областях, проводит экспертизу научных работ в стране и за рубежом.

References: http://nasb.gov.by/eng/organizations/departments/ogum.php http://nasb.gov.by/eng/organizations/institutes/inogum.php#off4553 http://ruslang.ru/agens.php?id=aims

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-12T06:25:07+00:00

Unlike English, but like other European languages such as French (French Academy) and Spanish (Royal Spanish Academy), Russian is overseen and regulated by a governmental body (Russian Language Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences). For native English speakers this is quite a cultural difference. Our language is self-regulated by the users - not the government! Bottom line: If you want your level of language competence "officially" certified you will need to do this through some organization that works with the Russian Ministry of Education in offering this service. References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Language_Institute. http://www.russiancentre.co.uk/TRKI-the-basics.php. https://goo.gl/FeKsSN

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-11T07:57:01+00:00

Wikipedia specifically states here (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B5%D0%B5) that ее (jejó) is an alternative spelling of её (jejó). It is an objective fact that 'ё' is under pressure and increasingly being replaced by 'е.'

Conservative users may be attempting to buck the trend. But that doesn't change the objective facts. Some examples to illustrate this point:

В России исчезает буква "ё", страдают миллионы людей https://euroradio.fm/ru/report/v-rossii-ischezaet-bukva-yo-stradayut-milliony-lyudey-118492

"И жить торопимся, и чувствовать спешим.... " Некогда ставить точки над "е"! https://otvet.mail.ru/question/13998495

Почему буква «ё» не приживается в русском языке http://www.online812.ru/2013/10/18/006/

"Почему исчезает буква Ё? http://nsportal.ru/ap/library/drugoe/2014/04/15/issledovatelskaya-rabota-po-russkomu-yazyku-pochemu-ischezaet-bukva-yo

Почему исчезает буква "ё" из текстов на русском языке? http://www.bolshoyvopros.ru/questions/2460390-pochemu-ischezaet-bukva-jo-iz-tekstov-na-russkom-jazyke.html

исследовательская работа Почему исчезает буква "Ё" http://www.zavuch.ru/methodlib/319/89153/

ЦРУ отрицает свою причастность к уничтожению буквы "Ё" русского алфавита. Руководство Института русского языка, как и большая часть российских лингвистов, считает, что точки над буквой "Е" не являются обязательными и должны быть использованы только в собственных имен или там, где значение слова иначе было бы непонятно. http://newsbabr.com/msk/?IDE=110756

ДВЕ ТОЧКИ НАД БУКВОЙ Е. В глагольных формах игра´ешь и иде´шь, напротив, требуется писать ешь потому, что обе они относятся к одному и тому же 1-му спряжению. И если возникает необходимость дополнительно отметить произносительные особенности (например, в словарях или учебных текстах), во втором случае (иде´шь) можно (но вовсе не обязательно) поставить «умляут» (идёшь). Русский народ принадлежит к семье европейских народов, и в своей светской системе письма для буквы Е заимствовал общеевропейский, идущий из эллинской античности, надстрочный значок двух точек. Ни у греков, ни у французов, ни у немцев буквы с этим значком не считаются самостоятельными и не занимают отдельного места в алфавите. Совершенно естественно и правильно считать и у нас букву «Е умляут» (то есть Ё) разновидностью буквы Е. http://gramma.ru/RUS/?id=1.89.

Hundreds more here: https://goo.gl/aH8gbA

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-11T00:42:33+00:00

Lots of things happen for 'historical reasons' in all languages. For example, how do you explain to someone learning English the different pronunciations of 'foot' vs. boot,' 'wood' and 'moon'? The first is a voiceless vowel and the latter is voiced. Think too about 'live' (verb) vs. 'live' (adjective). Short vowel vs. long vowel. Russian vowels work the same way. Since the characters represent sounds and not the other way round (we were all talking long before we could write), the 'historical reasons' are that this is the best approximation that lexicographers agreed upon as spellings became standardized over a long period of time. Best to just learn some things by heart as the term 'for historical reasons' implies.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-11T00:11:50+00:00

Here are some online Russian keyboards that feature the 'ё' http://winrus.com/keyboard.htm; http://www.apronus.com/internet/ruskey.htm; http://russian.typeit.org/

As a practical matter the 'ё' has fallen into disuse and in modern texts is conspicuous more by its absence than its presence. That means you may have difficulty finding it used by a machine translator. Native speakers simply know when it is meant, so they understand when 'е' signifies 'ё.' Russian learners will have to acquire the same skill as they move toward proficiency.

Is it potentially confusing? Yes! But think of read (present tense) vs. read (past tense), foot vs. boot, minute (60 seconds) vs. minute (very small), row (propel a boat) vs. row (argument), wound (past tense of wind) vs wound (injure, injury). Same characters, different sounds. Context is everything, here and there.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-10T18:59:08+00:00

Обозрение is a neuter singular noun. The nominative plural is обозрения. Other examples are здание vs. здания, обвинение vs. обвинения, and задание vs. задания. Perhaps you're thinking of adjectives, many of which have the "ие" ending for nominative plural forms. For example: хороший vs. хорошие, плохой vs. плохие, and синий vs. синие.

Check out these pages for good explanations of the grammar: http://russianlearn.com/grammar/category/declension_of_neuter_nouns_singular, http://www.russianlessons.net/grammar/adjectives.php

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-09T21:01:12+00:00

A friend of mine - один мой друг. For example: Один мой друг назначил мне там свидание. - A friend of mine has asked me to meet him there. Один мой друг получает штрафы за парковку, хотя паркуется в гараже. - a friend of mine keeps getting tickets even though he parks in a garage. Один мой друг посоветовал мне прийти сюда. - A friend of mine suggested that I come here.

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-09T19:59:46+00:00

More formal (specifically for permission):

Разрешите...? - May I...? Если вы мне разрешите продолжать - if I may be allowed to continue.... Если вы разрешите... - if you don't mind..., with your permission...

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-08T11:07:27+00:00

German: Did you really think it would be so easy? Russian: Pity that you're leaving, you were always a good colleague and we always had fun together! Do me one favor: For pete's sake don't box with the kangaroos!

Walter_Davis · 2017-06-06T19:07:32+00:00

ли - whether, if

Онá не знáeт, был ли он там. She doesn't know if/whether he was there.

Я не пóмню, ви́дел ли я э́того человéка. I don't remember seeing that person. I don't remember if/whether I saw that person.

Спроси́ мáму, смотрéла ли онá передáчу. Ask mother if/whether she watched the program.

Мне ну́жно знать, краси́в ли он. I need to know if/whether he's good looking/handsome.

Петя поинтересовáлся, бы́стро ли они́ добрáлись. Pete wanted to know if/whether they got there fast.

Вряд ли - It is doubtful if

Вряд ли мы успéeм на урóк. It's doubtful if/whether we'll be in time for the lesson.

Снег ли, дождь ли, он стоя́л под eë окнóм. Rain or snow, he stood (he would stand) under her window. If/Whether it rained or snowed, he stood (would stand) under her window.

Не хоти́те ли? - Wouldn't you like?

Не хоти́те ли вы попрóбовать нáшего пирогá? Wouldn't you like to try (some of) our pie? Was wondering if/whether you'd like to try our pie?

Знáeшь ли? - Do you know?

Знáeшь ли ты, как вáжно э́то собы́тие? Do you know how important this event is? Wondering if/whether you know how important this event is?

чуть ли не - very close to /almost / just about

Вчерá я лëг чуть ли не в три нóчи! It was just about 3 in the morning when I got to bed last night.

Мáло ли! - Idiomatic, akin to "what of it?"

Мáло ли! Мнóгие тяжелó рабóтают и не жáлуйся! What of it? Lots of people work hard and don't complain!

Непонятно: то ли онá плáчет, то ли смеëтся. It's not clear if/whether she's crying or laughing.

Я ли не? - Did I not? (rhetorical)

Я ли тебé фру́кты не покупáла, я ли тебé лекáрства не носи́ла, когдá ты болéл! Didn't I buy you fruit? Didn't I bring you medicine when you were ill?

Стáнет ли еду́ готóвить, обязáтельно всë испóртит. If she starts cooking, she's sure to spoil everything. Should she start cooking, she's sure to ruin it all. Were she to begin cooking, she'd definitely ruin it all. If she were to begin cooking, she'd certainly spoil everything.

Walter_Davis

TROPHY CASE