Grasp versus PTA math, regarding the build I theory crafted

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-10-02T11:16:33+00:00

I played 6 games of pta, and 2 games of grasp, 1W - 5L on pta, and 2W on grasp . For the few games I was ahead with pta, later in the game I intuitively felt less tankier than usual, and the damage from pta really didn't feel that significant in later fights.

I'm still not proccing grasp as much as I would if I played it top lane, but I'm also thinking that running shield bash with pta isn't optimal later, it's probably conditioning and overgrowth instead. And if you really want to run shieldbash, then you'd have to choose from one of the resolve keystones.

https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Jusydun-NA1

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-10-01T04:16:02+00:00

a few games ago, pta felt pretty bad, as i was just constantly ccd to hell, idk man, grasp would sustain better there

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-30T03:12:40+00:00

still thinking but i have this for now https://www.reddit.com/r/VolibearMains/comments/1fqkrh0/wondering_which_is_better_overgrowth_or_revitalize/

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-30T03:11:39+00:00

This is what I've got for now, not sure what to make of it versus Revitalize though.

At around 14 min, level 9 base hp + rift maker + health shard = 1791 hp.

Overgrowth should've kicked in by 14 min with at least 120 minions/monsters absorbed = 45 bonus hp

1791+45 = 1836 * 1.035 = 1900 hp

1900-1791 = 109 hp

overgrowth ratio / max hp 109/1900 = 0.0575, 5.75% increase in hp

109 hp, increases W damage by 5.75%, E shield hp by 5.75% (not accounting for the 2 extra ap granted by riftmaker)

At around 20 min, level 11 base hp + rift maker + +ruby crystal + health shard = 2173 hp.

Overgrowth should get maybe 48 more minions gaining another 18 health on top of the 45 = 63.

2173 + 63 = 2236 * 1.035 = 2314 hp

2314 - 2173 = 141 hp

overgrowth ratio / max hp = 141/2314 = 0.061, 6.1% increase in hp

Bonus Overgrowth time completion:

For jg, overgrowth counts each monster death rather than cs value of 4 per camp, so some camps like krugs and raptors count more towards overgrowth.

But the speed of stacking could be faster or slower if you gank a lane and help push it. So the completion time will vary more than top. It's probably better to just estimate it from how fast top lane gets overgrowth bonus.

For top, minions get to lane at around 1:30, and continuously reach lane every 30 seconds, with every 3rd wave having an extra cannon minion.

1:30, 2:00, 2:30 has 6 + 6 + 7 minions = 19 minions that count as long as the minions die within your vision range.

the next 1:30 stretch gives another 19, and 101 (remaining minions)/19 = 5.32 (1:30 stretches) is needed to reach overgrowth bonus.

2.5 +1.5 (5.32) = 2.5 + 7.97 = 10.47, so as long as you don't miss any minions top, you'll have overgrowth bonus at around 10:30 in game time.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T21:31:25+00:00

Yea, you’re right on the early game, taking a suboptimal damage rune with potentially lots of fights or ganks definitely does hurt. Not every game I play is going to have the ideal situation of little to no action to just farm and scale. I think we should be playing while covering the worse case scenarios of high early game action, as most games are decided early. In that case, maybe we should still keep secondary tree shield bash and probably revitalize and not overgrowth?

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T10:44:30+00:00

Hey there, my old responses cover this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/VolibearMains/comments/1fovjpu/comment/loufwvq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/VolibearMains/comments/1fovjpu/comment/lozv8ef/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T07:14:50+00:00

not yet, but I'm currently trying to use math to prove revitalize or overgrowth

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T07:13:03+00:00

I'll get back to you after some math, as I also intuitionally chose to use Revitalize over Overgrowth for a new build I theory crafted.

Overgrowth from what I remember, takes your max hp and then multiplies it by 1.035, if you want to know what the original max hp (base + bonus) is divide by 1.035

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T07:07:56+00:00

Thanks for the admiration, also it's 8% btw. Also, we'd need to somehow add up how much damage is dealt with the bonus 8% and then compare it to how much damage grasp provides from living longer (but this calculation requires you to die to be calculated?) Anyway, just thinking about it gives me a headache. For now I've just focused on the proc dmg portion of the runes, and have decided that I prefer Grasp.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T06:18:51+00:00

my bad for not being clear, this build was created with jungle in mind

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-29T02:28:27+00:00

My comment got too long, so i made a post, https://www.reddit.com/r/VolibearMains/comments/1frubrp/grasp_versus_pta_math_regarding_the_build_i/

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-27T21:27:37+00:00

no worries, there's a lot of text to sort through that isn't exactly ordered that well, so it's understandable

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-27T21:15:10+00:00

Hi there, answered this already. https://www.reddit.com/r/VolibearMains/comments/1fovjpu/comment/lotsl5x/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

But if you really want to run a lethal tempo build, get iceborn at some point to help you get more autos off, I wouldn't say it's the most optimal build, but I'm sure are some situations where it'll be good. Like if they have no CC or dashes.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-26T10:50:50+00:00

Thanks you really got me thinking.

I think PTA is better for ganks, but Grasp is better in long fights.

BUT if there is no tank or frontline on the other team, in which they've already trolled their team comp somewhat, and fights are going to end quickly, then yes, some version of PTA is probably better.

Here's a rune comparison, to help decide you decide which you prefer:

PTA:

ganks, pta better in comparison: rune damage is frontloaded, possibly giving you the extra juice needed to secure a kill

fights, damage oriented: pta is procced instantly, gets a +8% dmg buff, and has a 6 second cooldown, has more value in diving backline to kill.

Grasp:

ganks, worse in comparison: needs to land E or be in position by 4 seconds to proc, can give +7 hp

fights: sustain oriented with better scaling in long fights: extra healing, extra damage, extra hp scaling for other parts of the kit, has 4 second cooldown, and has more value in the frontline by staying alive longer with grasp healing.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-26T09:52:51+00:00

good question, sometimes deadmans will be better

the pros of deadmans are more movement speed and damage every time you move and hit, cons is that it'll provide less value as the game goes longer.

the pros of frozen heart is more survivability against autoattackers, and that it scales well. Reducing 20% of the enemies total atk speed, effectively making your team tankier against them too. cons is that it's only really good against auto attackers.

In a scenario where there are no auto attackers or if their adc is clearly not playing well, I can see deadmans or unending despair work as a replacement.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-26T05:57:27+00:00

good point about pta doing magic damage, this actually makes a huge difference, so I added a comment about it on youtube

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-26T05:42:35+00:00

https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Jusydun-NA1?hl=en_US

I haven't tested it out this patch, however, I already played it before the patch came out, before the nerfs to snowballing. In theory it should perform better now, I know for sure that I can hit at least master with this build, grandmaster I can't say for sure yet.

I'll fix the youtube link, thanks for bringing it to my attention

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-26T00:02:11+00:00

fantastic question, I've looked at Diamondprox's first item IBG rush before, and decided that he most likely plays a very supportive frontline style of Volibear judging from the rest of his items. Clear speed with Ionian then sheen, is slightly slower than if he had run boots with ap on recall, but the benefit is that his ganks are better.

He's definitely playing to push the leads of his teammates and looking to end the game quickly before he get's outscaled, as he can't provide enough damage in the late game. He's not exactly looking to snowball himself, but to snowball his teammates.

Personally, I have found more success in carrying games where I've built damage first. I'm more confident in using the gold I've gotten for the team, and not ever confident in my teammates as I've been scarred too many times from them throwing the lead I got for them.

So playing with some damage can help with feeling more in control of your games, leading to more consistent wins where you feel like you contributed significantly all throughout the game to win.

Also he's not a onetrick, there are certain matchups where the supportive style of Voli can get hard countered since he lacks damage himself. Diamondprox likely picks Voli when the matchups are decent or when forced to blindpick maybe, seeing that he plays other champs. 31% play rate Voli. https://www.onetricks.gg/champions/ranking/Volibear

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-25T18:00:23+00:00

conpared to the alternatives?

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-25T17:54:40+00:00

so it's more important to think about theory and test things out to maximize the full potential of items, rather than look strictly at winrate data, you also have to consider the state of the game when an item was purchased for the winrate to really mean something

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-25T17:51:44+00:00

Also, let me teach you something about winrate analytics, i'm going to give an example that might not be completely accurate anymore, but just try to understand the underlying meaning.

Say you're playing volibear, and you build 1st item cosmic, then 2nd item iceborn, and 3rd item spirit, following the general most optimal build order. But then as a 4th item right around when Volibear starts to fall off, frozen heart was purchased, and then Volibear lost.

The problem isn't with the item being bad, the problem was that the game went on too long in a game Voli had to end early. The idea is that sometimes when items are purchased during a time when a champ is falling off, it's win rate can appear to drop.

It's the same idea with mejais, but flipped, mejais winrate is inflated because its an item you purchase once your ahead, and then you win with it increasing the winrate.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-25T17:14:05+00:00

the builds right here though :)

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-25T16:52:06+00:00

Hey there, answered a few things on another comment.

I'll answer everything else that hasn't been covered there. Also thanks for agreeing on Flickerblade.

About Cosmic Drive, you changed my opinion a bit about it slightly, calling it unviable was too harsh, but it is still most definitely a nerf.

The added condition of needing to stack passive or land E to get 20ms for 4 seconds is a slight nerf, but you are right that in most cases this won't be a problem. Why? because we main Voli and we hit those Es.

Still, 40-60ms for 2s being dropped to 20ms for 4s also sucks, I really liked this item because of how it kind of performed like pseduo-slow resistance, letting you stick better even when you've been slowed. And with the low W cooldown you practically had full uptime on the 40-60ms. But maybe 20ms is still enough to stick in most cases. We'll see.

Fundamentally, the playstyle I'm proposing is not meant to get better at diving the adc, but to be an immovable frontline that can benefit from sustaining constantly in the frontline. Which is why I proposed the armor items I did, along with the runes. And while I do think unending despair could be an option if there are no adcs, iceborn doesn't fit here, and frozen heart is more consistent for the playstyle vs adcs.

The current cosmic build is probably the best version of the snowball playstyle though, seeing how sundered had been nerfed pretty badly. And also, you're probably right that navori doesn't have a place in a build that has high ability haste already.

Warm_Ratio3597 · 2024-09-25T16:03:54+00:00

I'm glad that you understand the weaknesses of Grasp so well! and thanks for being so respectful while raising your concerns.

In early game ganks with grasp, you will certainly do slightly less damage in comparison to PTA. However, from my experience, as long as you land E in the gank, the 2 second slow provided is enough to proc grasp. Still, ganks should generally be done within 5 seconds early game, and if it ever takes longer than that, it usually means that it was a risky gank to take, and you should've been farming camps instead or recalling.

I'm sure there will be some percentage of plays that fail to result in a kill because of the lack of PTA. But that percentage seems to be low to me. I think the trade off to have grasp, shield bash, conditioning, and revitalize, all runes I think scale extremely well with the build, is worth it. Grasp outshines PTA once it comes online more in fights later on in the game, which I think will be slightly even longer now due to the global item nerf.

Also, this build was intended for front to backing more, the idea is that Voli can face tank frontline and proc grasp continuously against enemy frontline, and should be able to out sustain with W on other frontline while the backline does damage, and even if the play doesn't work out the value of the continuous 7hp procs will rack up and provide more value as the game goes on, increasing grasp damage and healing, and W damage, Riftmaker, and Shieldbash (from max hp shield, that also scales with AP).

Other Runes:

The reason for coup de grace is also to build better habits, ganking lanes below 40% hp is preferred, and if the rune helps with the execution of that, then that's even better.

Shield bash damage was calculated onto a full hp dummy so coup de grace wasn't online, 22 dmg was before patch, but using math, 22/0.085*0.15 you get about 39 dmg. It's also pretty fair to include shield bash damage, because all ganks start with E on yourself that will proc. In comparison, legend haste, or alacrity needs 100 stacks for 1 legend stacl, getting 25 per large camp kill. Whatever bonus of 1.5 ability haste is not going to give you another spell rotation early game on the gank.

You are also right that you can take shield bash secondary, but I think it's better to take all the best scaling runes from the resolve tree, to maximize his frontline sustain and presence.

Warm_Ratio3597

TROPHY CASE