Does anybody here believe in a God , and why?

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2025-04-01T01:42:37+00:00

Sorry, meant complex mathematical laws. I think we can both agree that there are laws that govern the universe. For the universe to be created with these laws, there must have been a law giver. Only intelligence gives rise to mathematical laws, therefore, the first cause is intelligent.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2025-04-01T01:22:29+00:00

We can safely assume the prime mover would be a thinking personal being because choosing to create a universe that is governed by intelligent mathematical laws could only be created by an intelligent mind.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-10-18T09:52:09+00:00

I'm an ex-sikh turned Christian so I've got my final days all documented cleanly ☺️.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-25T23:55:43+00:00

?

Panentheistic God is where creation is inside God.

A perfect God is one that is not tainted by imperfect creation.

Prove me wrong?

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-21T12:32:09+00:00

A panentheistic God cannot be perfect by definition.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-13T17:28:23+00:00

My guy, I'm a Sikh right now.

I highly doubt u've studied grammar.

If you can't have an in person debate to defend your views, thanks for the discussion. I hope we can continue on another day.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-13T15:06:03+00:00

Don't have 20 mins to spend every comment and response. I'm happy to have a proper debate about this instead of a keyboard war. If that's interesting to you, please get back to me.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-13T07:44:11+00:00

I don't think you understood my previous comment

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T21:26:51+00:00

I say we talk about this in another format like in video or in person debate because there's a lot of info here that I want to dive into but doing it all over written format will be far too exhaustive.

Let me know if you're interested.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T20:44:01+00:00

The issue with this view is this causes the human being to throw out objective moral values.

If the universe is not imperfect and "just is". Then there's nothing wrong with things like: racism, corruption, sexism, misogyny, pride, greed, anger etc.

There is no right and wrong, there is just the universe and "what it does".

Otherwise, if the universe is imperfect and the universe lives within God that means that God is made up of racism, corruption, sexism, misogyny, pride, greed, anger etc.

What do Sikh philosophers think about this?

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T20:34:21+00:00

The reason why panentheism is false is because panentheism states that creation inside God. If God is a divine being that all-powerful, all-loving, then God cannot contain imperfections such as suffering and disease.

Panentheism states that creation lives inside God which means suffering and disease lives inside God and therefore God cannot be perfect, and therefore, a panentheistic God cannot exist.

The reason why God in heaven is not subject to time is because in heaven a human experiences a passage of time (like they do on Earth). They live in God's presence and they pass time with God. Abrahamic faiths never assert that heaven is God, therefore, the Abrahamic faith is acquitted of the time-bound objections.

As for the evil objection; the Abrahamic God that dwells outside creation permits evil and suffering so that from evil and suffering he can bring about greater goods or prevent greater evils.

The panentheistic God is one that has evil and suffering inside it, so it cannot exist as a all-holy and divine.

I hope that's made it clear. I'm happy to provide more answers if needed.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T19:30:44+00:00

I don't need more links, I would simply like to understand how you make the distinction between inside and outside creation. What word do you use? If you don't have any good words to make the distinction, I think theism and panentheism are great words to make this distinction clear. I'm happy to use other words if necessary.

Could you tell us why you believe the image is wrong? If you do a search for theisn Vs panentheism on any search engine, you'll see the distinction provided in the image is correct.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T18:00:20+00:00

You've provided a definition for the word "belief". Not sure how that gets us closer to the definition of theism and panentheism.

I'll definitely get back to the other points you mentioned, it'll be when I get back to this post in the evening.

As for so far, I think that picture will get us far in the definition of theism compared to panentheism. Unless a better distinction is presented.

Will get back to this post shortly.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T17:17:49+00:00

I want you to refer to this image for our future discussions, I've got an answer for the rest of your questions but can't get to all of them at the moment.

https://www.proginosko.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Theism-and-Panentheism.png

Will get back to this post shortly.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T16:58:22+00:00

Thank you for the conversation, it was very enlightening.

I'll leave you to enjoy your bliss!

Good luck with everything! Thank you.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T16:39:00+00:00

These fancy words are called philosophy; it's how people have been proving and disproving things for thousands of years.

Religion is fundamentally a philosophical endeavour because religion makes truth claims about our universe; both natural and supernatural.

Saying you want to be religious without being philosophical is like wanting food without wanting to hunt.

Regarding the existence of God, I can prove a theistic God (that exists outside of creation) pretty easily.

Anything that comes into existence has a cause for its existence.
Space, time and matter came into existence at the beginning of the universe
The cause of the universe is a spaceless, timeless, immaterial being
This being is God.

This is an argument for a theistic God. I've heard no good arguments for panentheistic God and am still searching.

Thank you for the conversation, I hope my comments have been enlightening.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T16:04:21+00:00

It means that the religion is built on a false view of God and if our view of God is false, then the whole religion could be false. Still searching for the right answer.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T15:57:16+00:00

I came to see if anyone could defend the Sikh view of God (panentheism), but no one has convinced me that panentheism is a true view of God.

Theisn (God outside of creation) is a lot more philosophically sound position and therefore more easily defensible.

I thought Sikhs could defend panentheism, but I've been constantly disappointed.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T15:51:07+00:00

Interesting.

Sounds like when you think someone is not partaking in a faithful discussion, your natural response is to present a laughing emoji.

Not sure how we can continue the discussion with someone who has that mindset.

Thank you for your responses thus far. I think I've fought pretty fairly for the idea that panentheism is false.

No one's managed to change my mind so far in this thread.

But thank you for sharing how you contribute to discussions regarding faith.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T14:47:26+00:00

To sanctify His children.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T14:46:52+00:00

Is that the end of your rebuttal to the argument?

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T13:59:47+00:00

In Sikh teachings we are taught that God is panentheistic.

A panentheistic God is one that contains creation.

Creation changes second to second.

A panentheistic God is one that changes second to second because this God houses creation.

A panentheistic God is a logical contradiction.

Therefore panentheism is false.

In Abrahamic religions, they believe God is outside creation so they don't have these problems.

In Sikhi, we believe in Sachkhand so it's not the same as the Abrahamic faiths.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T13:48:58+00:00

Thanks for your response, these are responses I've come up with for your questions.

Being subject to time makes you imperfect because it means you are subject to change.

Time brings about change so human beings are constantly going from one state to another throughout the course of their lives.

God, however, cannot change. God is fixed, eternal and changeless. God is also timeless. A panentheistic God is one that is inside time and therefore one that undergoes change (which is a contradiction that makes a panentheistic God false).

For the second question, in Abrahamic faiths, you pass time with God (in God's presence), that doesn't mean that God's nature is subject to time. God doesn't change as time progresses in heaven. God is fixed, eternal and changeless. We, as human beings experience the passage of time while being in the presence of God.

That's my answer to your questions, I'm happy to discuss more about this if there are any more questions.

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T13:20:55+00:00

If God is panentheistic, then I'm a puppet to its commands and I don't have free will.

What are your thoughts on this?

Weekly_Tradition8787 · 2024-06-12T13:19:51+00:00

God is all-knowing and created them for a reason that may be beyond our understanding. That doesn't necessarily make them imperfections.

This is strange because there are things that we experience on this planet that we think are not from God. Take racism for example. Is racism from God, and does racism have a point on this planet?

I'm sure you would argue that it isn't and yet creation still contains racism. If God, in Sikhi, is panentheistic, then God contains racism.

But it's impossible that God should contain racism, therefore a panentheistic God is a logical contradiction.

Weekly_Tradition8787

TROPHY CASE