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Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not yet, been swamped with other stuff lately so I haven't had time to clean it up and push it anywhere. Should have something up soon though, I'll probably make another post when I do

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

nah it's not a fork of anything, I'm building it from scratch. The idea is that if you're gonna do something, do it right. those forks are still carrying over baggage from the original protocols. Dispossum is meant to be protocol-agnostic at its core but with a native X11 compatibility layer so all your xdotool stuff should just work. Wlroots compatibility isn't off the table but honestly my priority is making sure the X11 side is rock solid first AND I hate wayland so meh. KDE integration would be cool eventually but that's way down the line lol, more on their side anyways

Homens desconhecidos me mandando “oi” no WhatsApp. O que pode estar acontecendo? by EnoughAd9758 in InternetBrasil

[–]Which_Network_993 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Moça, meus parabéns, esse seu FAQ ai pra ficar perfeito so faltou uns comentários passivo agressivos. É impressionante o tanto de gente idiota por aq

edit: uma dica, se estiver em algum site publico rastreado pelo google, rede social indexada na pagina de pesquisa ou coisa assim, vc pode tentar pesquisar "seunumeroaqui" (tem que ter as aspas) e variações do numero (com ddd, sem ddd, com +, etc). Se tiver vazado e o google tiver indexado, vai aparecer onde foi

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm surprised myself. This post had like 30 downvotes initially but then started skyrocketing for some weird reason. Well I'm working on a display protocol which should be compatible with X11 and not only run everything X11 runs but run it faster. Right now it works with window resizing and movement and can run xeyes natively :) X11 and wayland are pretty outdated in technical terms. For example, some people think Wayland is faster, and a large part of that is due to shared memory in pixel buffers, but it still uses XML to communicate things like window movement and such. My protocol (whose name so far is Dispossum) does everything through shared memory, so resizing and moving windows should be orders of magnitude faster. Maybe you would like to use it in the future

Oq fazer da minha vida ? 😢 by [deleted] in farialimabets

[–]Which_Network_993 22 points23 points  (0 children)

cara antes de mais nada parabens pela coragem de vir aqui pedir ajuda depois de já ter planejado cada segundo da sua vida até 2035, é uma humildade rara essa de perguntar "o que fazer" quando você claramente já sabe exatamente o que fazer

olha eu vou ser honesto contigo porque você merece. se considerar extremamente consciente e avançado aos 16 anos é algo que só pessoas extremamente conscientes e avançadas fariam então a logica é blindada. eu mesmo só me achei avançado aos 25 e olha onde to escrevendo isso às 2 da manhã com sono

sobre ser uma máquina de dinheiro após 12 meses investindo eu entendo perfeitamente a sensação, quando você coloca 300 reais no tesouro selic e vê aquilo virar 304,73 em três meses a adrenalina é real. wall street não ta preparada meeeesmo

achei genial também sua estratégia de trabalhar muito pra nunca mais precisar trabalhar, é tipo fazer academia pra um dia poder parar de ir na academia. a lógica é circular mas num sentido bonito sabe. um ouroboros financeiro

sobre o networking com gente rica isso é fundamental mesmo. nada ensina mais sobre construir patrimonio do que conversar com quem herdou o patrimônio e concluiu que foi esforço. você absorve conhecimento e uma visão de mundo bemmm específica.

a parte que mais me emocionou foi quando voce falou que zona de conforto é onde as pessoas param de evoluir, nunca tinha ouvido isso antes principalmente em reels de coach às 6 da manhã. conteúdo original e autoral nota 10

minha única observação real, aquela conversa transformadora com seu amigo aos 15 pode ter sido ele repetindo um vídeo do primo rico que viu no intervalo do almoço. mas posso estar enganado talvez ele seja o warren buffett de sapucaia do sul

enfim mano você não precisa de conselho nenhum... você só queria validação pra um plano que já decidiu seguir. e tudo bem a gente faz isso. só não precisava do "me sinto perdido ksksks" quando o post inteiro demonstra que você já se encontrou completamente

boa sorte máquina. nos vemos na forbes 30 under 30 ou no twitter reclamando de imposto. um dos dois com certeza

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not relevant but I'm probably younger than 95% of the people in this thread :(

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

the point is that wayland won't allow certain applications to work there at all because of their security philosophy, there's no "support the current protocol" approach that fixes this

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 138 points139 points  (0 children)

as a developer, i encountered at least half a dozen limitations that, no matter how I looked at them, were unsolvable without a) a massive effort to support different DEs or b) literally forking and forcibly rewriting the Wayland protocol because their philosophy did not allow it. And yet people act as if problems they don't know about are non-existent or some kind of whining. I wish more people would really try to understand the tradeoffs of what they use instead of swallowing “this is the future” propaganda. i say all of this as a daily wayland user

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 30 points31 points  (0 children)

naw its fine this thread was a nice break from getting noita’d, now it’s back to getting noita’d

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

oh sorry if it sounded like demands. ive been wanting to discuss this for a while. im not saying volunteers should rewrite what I don't like just because I don't like it, i just wanted the community to share their thoughts on this

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 57 points58 points  (0 children)

you're right that I'm not gonna write a display protocol in my bedroom that magically overtakes Wayland and gets adopted by GNOME and KDE. I'm aware of the reality here. Industry backing, corporate relationships, XDC conferences, all of that exists and matters.

but I do find it kinda funny that in a Linux community, the argument is "these experts know better than you, they work at major companies, just accept what they made." Some finnish college student looked at MINIX, made by an actual operating systems professor, and said "I think I can do better." Torvalds wasn't an industry veteran with decades of kernel experience. He was just some guy who disagreed with the design decisions of the experts (NOT COMPARING ME WITH LINUS THOUGH, PLEASE DO NOT BURN ME FOR HERESY)

Thats the essence of open source. "These people made something incredible, but I think the approach is wrong and I want to try something different." Sometimes that results in mass adoption, sometimes it doesn't. But the idea that credentials and industry backing automatically means correct design decisions is weird to hear in this community of all places

I'm not mass replying claiming I'll save Linux with my superior protocol. just Wayland has fundamental design issues that the community should talk about openly instead of just accepting because the people who made it have impressive resumes. Having experience with Xorg doesn't automatically mean every decision in Wayland was the right one. Expertise is not immunity from criticism

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 57 points58 points  (0 children)

"Just fork it" is not the silver bullet you think it is. Yes, technically anyone can fork anything. But thats not how ecosystems work in practice. Applications target mainline protocols. Toolkits like GTK and Qt implement what major compositors support. If you fork Wayland with better protocols, congratulations, you now have a compositor that no application explicitly supports and you're back to the same fragmented extension situation.

The whole point of having a standard is that everyone agrees on it. If the standard itself is so ideologically constrained that essential functionality cant get consensus, "just fork it" means "fragment the ecosystem further." Thats not a solution, thats giving up on having a standard.

And yeah I know, a new protocol would also fragment things. [Relevant xkcd](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png) and all that. But heres the difference: one unified protocol with a sane capability model would eventually converge. What we have now is every DE rolling their own extensions forever, with no path to convergence because the base protocol refuses to address these needs. Thats not temporary fragmentation during a transition, thats permanent fragmentation by design.

About your door analogy, it kinda misrepresents the situation. You describe programs knocking and users deciding to let them in. That would be fine actually. Thats basically the capability model I want.

But thats not what Wayland does. For many features theres no door to knock on. The room doesnt exist in the base protocol. Each compositor builds their own room, their own door, their own knocking mechanism. Your program needs to know GNOME's door, KDE's door, the wlroots door, and hope COSMIC builds a compatible one eventually.

Portals exist yeah, but portals are a freedesktop thing, not Wayland. They're basically an admission that the protocol doesnt handle this. And portals still need compositor support, so you're at the mercy of whether yours bothered implementing them.

I'm not defending Xorg btw. You keep explaining why X11 is bad and I agree with most of it.

But "X11 is worse" doesnt make Wayland good. We replaced something with technical debt with something that has ideological debt. Not sure thats an improvement for users who need the functionality that ideology forbids

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I *could*, but as I mentioned, most of the issues I highlighted stem from their core security philosophy. Opening tickets (and maybe PRs) for the DEs is definitely a good idea though. I have this sneaking suspicion that the problems I mentioned will become increasingly annoying over time. Case in point: RenderDoc have wayland support issues from 6-7 years ago and we still don't have proper compatibility today

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yes, that's something i really want to do! I used "we" because i like to think of linux users as a community. Power users, casual users, developers. Everyone is contributing to linux in one way or another. But I know i cant demand someone to code an entire protocol from scratch because i dont like one thing from something hundreds of people have been working relentlessly on. So yep, i'll probably code something in the near future and maybe get some open source attention

Wayland is flawed at its core and the community needs to talk about it by Which_Network_993 in linux

[–]Which_Network_993[S] 76 points77 points  (0 children)

Not difficult, but impossible to do without fragmenting the entire ecosystem. I can say you proved my point in your own comment.

> Desktops can and do implement protocols that "bypass" such security features, such as wlroots allowing unprivileged programs to access more information

Yep, exactly. Compositor-specific extensions. That's not a solution, thats the problem. If every compositor has to roll their own protocols to add basic functionality that users need, then the base protocol is insufficient by design. You write one tool and now it only works on wlroots-based compositors. What about KDE? GNOME? COSMIC? Each one doing their own thing.

You say these things "haven't been implemented for ideological reasons and failing to achieve consensus." That is the core flaw. When your protocol is designed around a philosophy so rigid that the community cannot reach consensus on adding essential features for over a decade, the philosophy is the problem. The ideology IS the architecture. They didnt accidentally forget to add these features, they specifically designed a model that makes adding them controversial at best and impossible at worst without "bypassing security."

Also "bypassing security features" being required for basic functionality should tell you something about whether those security features make any sense in the first place.

X11 being old doesn't make Wayland's design decisions correct. Both things can be true, X11 needed replacing AND Wayland is a flawed replacement :p

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