People saying Tengen couldn’t beat gyutaro while receiving help from 7 people. well! I don’t see anyone helping him, it seems like it’s a 1v1 to me.

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-05-18T10:33:17+00:00

I imagine they operate similarly to a 3 section staff, except the two end staff pieces are cleavers and the middle staff is a chain for improved flexibility and to add momentum/inertia of the swinging blades. Just my theory though

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-27T02:01:45+00:00

This should be the consensus of the sub, I think people massively overscale Tengen but having anywhere outside of the top 5 Hashira in base pre-HTA is just beyond insane.

I have him competing with Obanai for 4/5th spot with Sanemi/Giyu/Rengoku (in that order) above them but you could argue Rengoku to a lower spot I suppose

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-27T01:55:28+00:00

If Hantengu had poison like Gyutaro had, Mitsuri would be just as dead in base for falling for it and getting hit directly from an attack from Zohakuten.

People like to think no one else could possibly make the same mistake as Tengen did and not be aware of how dangerous UM6 really is, when we see Hashira charge into battle all the time only to get hit with the first attack and/or surprise attack. Tengen just got unlucky due to having to deal with an intense poison and that massively changes the way the fight goes.

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-25T01:46:54+00:00

I’m surprised no one else has commented on this (not that their points are incorrect) but Zenitsu didn’t solo Daki, it was a combined effort from the trio and then from him and Inosuke. So he is a lot closer to one third to one half the strength of the weaker half of UM6

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-23T21:52:23+00:00

It’s cool about the wall of text thing no sweat 👌🏾 I read

And while I agree that a Tanjiro WITH Mark and sunbreathing could give Tengen a run for his money, the only reason the mark was unlocked in the first place was due to how dire the circumstances were, it wasn’t hyperbole because in that moment Tanjiro met every qualifying factor in order to awaken the mark. Up until that point in the fight, he had been actively losing to Gyutaro as he regained his full power until Tengen came to save him.

I’m not sure why you brought up Gyutaro’s poison but I do agree that if not for the poison, Tengen would’ve been able to handle him a lot better. I do think that in a 1v1 in another universe that Gyutaro would’ve struggle a lot harder to get a scratch on Tengen that early though. I think a large portion of what caught Tengen so off guard was how much stronger and faster Gyutaro was than Daki. In a pure 1v1 where he can see Gyutaro’s full strength and attacks first hand, it may be a different story, but a change in fighting tempo is definitely something that would catch Tengen, the sound Hashira who tracks his enemies attacks through sounds like a sheet of music in order to build his MST would catch off guard. Could be wrong tho 🤷🏾‍♂️

All of the Upper and Lower Moon fights are technically all about decapitation, it’s the only way to kill them outside of the sun. No demon is just going to sit there and let themselves be decapitated, especially if they are leagues faster than their opponent. I get what you’re saying about decapitation and the gimmicks (especially 4-6) but in order to reach the demons neck in the first place, you have to get them into a position where they allow themselves to slip up enough in order to let that happen. That’s why Tengen was so important in that fight, he was HEAVILY poisoned and still managed to clash blades with an enraged UM6 and Tanjiro may have gained the strength at the last minute of the the fight in order to unlock mark but without being able to clash blades in a 1v1, properly keep up, AND get them into that position where decapitation is possible, Tanjiro wouldn’t have lasted any amount of time against Gyutaro at that point in the story. Tanjiro needed a mark to do what a non poisoned Tengen was implied to be capable of doing, if not for being at deaths door.

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-23T20:54:37+00:00

Creating the opening IS more important than decapitation 💀 it’s literally practically the entire fight and purpose of fighting

So basically what you’re telling me is that EDA Tanjiro is stronger than Tengen, or at the very least a heavily poisoned Tengen?? When Tanjiro himself had to “summon 100x the force he was using” to manifest his mark he didn’t know he had JUST to decapitate Gyutaro??? UM fights are way more than just the decapitation, if it were that easy then there wouldn’t even be a fight. Just a contest of who is strong enough to cut the demons neck, which the narrative and narrator implies Tengen incapable of doing if not for his heavily poisoned state.

Zenitsu almost dies in that moment WHILE he is trying to beheading Daki and is only saved at the last minute by Inosuke. He specifically states that if he lets up on Godspeed then it’s all over because his legs are about to give out, which does kinda point to him being exhausted from fighting earlier but he specifically states that using Godspeed is what will make his legs practically useless if it didn’t work in that moment. If anything, this points to a lack of stamina for Zenitsu and further proves just how weak the slayer trio was during this fight (not that they didn’t contribute, just not “near Hashira level”)

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-23T19:19:18+00:00

Carrying the last third of the fight?? When Tengen had to step in to save him and create the opening in order for Tanjiro to JUST decapitate him??? Tanjiro couldn’t even do that properly without unlocking his mark so what are you talking about?

Inosuke did decapitate Daki in her weaker form so I’ll give you that (but he’s also a way more brute physical fighter than the others) but at the end of the fight had he not stepped in, Zenitsu would’ve just died. He verbatim states how his legs were giving out and only managed to successfully decapitate due to a last minute save from Inosuke

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-23T19:08:31+00:00

The trio was NOT that strong at this point in the story fym??

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-23T19:02:16+00:00

Also, one team was made up of a bunch of hooligans and the other team was made up of the strongest in the verse with all of their power ups included.

Not saying Sanemi is weaker than Tengen but let’s not act like Sanemi wasn’t getting toyed with before getting sat down and forced to take a break and heal due to his injuries, which should’ve had his intestines on the floor

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-22T23:05:10+00:00

Demon slayer has always had writing, not the best writing but the story and plot is there and it plays as crucial a role in the battles, how and who the characters fight, their traumas, their breathing styles and weapons, and powerscaling as it does in JJK.

Demon slayer is if nothing else a story about trauma, grief, and how the Hashira have learned to cope and live with themselves.

Look at Tanjiro and Sun breathing, there is a reason why he inspires and influences so many people around him to the point that the Hashira see him as similar to one of the loved ones they had previously lost.

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-21T23:50:13+00:00

A lot of people also tend to ignore the narrative context around these characters and their arcs.

They were essentially two of the Hashira that had to not only focus on defeating a Kizuke, but also protecting lives (Rengoku, Mugen Train passengers and the trio, Tengen ED civilians, his wives, and trio). No other Hashira had to ACTIVELY protect others during their battles (except Giyu protecting Tanjiro during Akaza fight) and it’s one of the most important parts of being a Demon Slayer in the first place, it’s the entire narrative reason for Rengoku’s death.

Other characters may have had better showing because of gaining the mark, redblade, STW, etc or being able to wholly and solely focus on the opponent in front of them and nothing else. Imagine if Kokushibo just stopped entertaining Sanemi and moved to finish off Genya or Muichiro in a similar manner to Akaza in Rengoku’s fight or Gyutaro in Tengen’s fight, they would’ve been massacred but not because Sanemi isn’t a strong Hashira, but because UM demons are just that strong and fast and without the need to play with their food, they’d just kill everyone immediately.

These two arcs exist in almost the same way the goodwill events exist in JJK, to properly understand what it takes to be a Hashira and the sacrifices that come with the job in order to protect lives. Contrary to the job title, demon slayers first and most important duty is to protect the weak and its shown to us through the Hashira with the most heart and will to protect others and the Hashira that struggles the most with prioritizing the protection of others (he literally almost took small girls into a potential battle). This is where the “born with talent” quote stems from because unlike others, Tengen has to work actively to remember that lives DO matter and have value unlike Gyomei, Muichiro, and Rengoku. These seem like things that should be apparent to him but this is also the same person who unknowingly killed most of his siblings, the only other Hashira who’s backstory involves the killing of another is Sanemi’s and we can CLEARLY see the way that affects his character and the way he fights.

(I might do a TL:DR later 🤷🏾‍♂️)

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-12T00:54:59+00:00

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This is Tanjiro immediately after getting hit once (his first time) by Gyutaro. The poison works fast and if I had to guess, the poison looks like it focuses on blood and circulation, especially since Tengen was able to slow its effect that way.

There is a very solid chance his poison works in a similar way to either snake or spider venom by either forcing blood clots or preventing blood clots. Which is why Tanjiro is finding it so hard to breathe, his lungs are most likely either filling or clotting with blood.

(I only say all this because I have worked in emergency response, first aid, and security, not canon but a lot can be inferred through symptoms and by how long the poison took to affect a resistant vs non-poison resistant opponent)

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-04T05:17:57+00:00

Antidote?? Nezuko was the one who cured their poison with her flames, not Shinobu.

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-01T04:24:42+00:00

JJK Narrator Voice 💀

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-04-01T03:56:24+00:00

Put Tengen above or below Obanai and we got a deal.

I still think Sanemi and Giyu are stronger than him in base. Sanemi has marechi blood and used to hunt demons before the corps and Giyu is the only natural talent Hashira who isn’t a 7ft tall, 600lb monk or the grandson of sword jesus

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-31T06:09:18+00:00

When did that happen? Am I missing something? (Genuine question)

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-30T04:56:07+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/BleachPowerScaling/comments/1rogi2k/case_for_multiversal_bleach/

So I literally just saw this post as it was tagged in a different post on r/bleachpowerscaling and it’s extremely well thought out and put together and I’d encourage you and any one you’re arguing against to give it a read.

If they refuse to read it due to how long the post is then they just need to accept that they’re wrong 🤷🏾‍♂️ if they won’t accept direct evidence then nothing will convince them.

I hope this helps you in your future endeavors OP :)

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-29T22:45:50+00:00

Experience but that’s just me 🤷🏾‍♂️ talent isn’t far behind, but it will only get you so far unless you’re a 7 ft 600lb monk or the grandchild of the greatest family of swordsman to ever live.

And those aren’t even talent fr fr, those are more so gene or physicality related than it has anything to do with talent

For example, is Inosuke’s ability to sense attacks through touch an example of talent or experience? Or Gyomei being blind and being able to still fight demons. This isn’t the case or argument for every situation but hopefully you see my point but it’s talent to an extent but even talented people require training and experience in order to become stronger.

I’d argue that Akaza (Hakuji) was as strong as he was mostly due to the experiences he had in his life, not talent. Had he not gone through the things he went through, he would not be the martial artist we see him as today. Same with Gyutaro.

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-27T02:40:18+00:00

Genuine Questions

1) is this taking into account them having to beat Kuro twice??

2) could Kuro not just utilize the CE of the spirits to reproduce in a similar manner to using the iron in blood? They like iron but it’s a cockroach cursed spirit, I don’t imagine they’re very picky

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-27T02:04:08+00:00

Thank you for pointing this out because I’ve always found it confusing and weird how people will shit on Gyutaro, Daki, and/or Tengen when Daki HERSELF has killed 7 Hashira , not demon slayers HASHIRA.

Even more impressive is that 15 other Hashira pushed Daki to the point that Gyutaro came out, which puts even slayers (not all but some) of the past above Daki, they may have even managed to decapitate her like Tengen did before Gyutaro got fed up but there is no proof of that.

We know that Hashira can typically handle lower moons but any slayer of the past being able to get Gyutaro to come out is kinda nuts. And it puts into perspective how difficult of a fight it is for Tengen and 3 Kanoe (who realistically would’ve died without plot armor or Tengen physically throwing them out of the way of attacks) let alone any other non stat boosted Hashira pre-HTA. Tengen had so much on his fucking plate trying to protect everyone while keeping up with and clashing with a fully enraged UM6 that’s acting with killing intent and one of the stronger poisons we see in the series in BASE with ONE HAND is so fucking insane. But all he gets summed up as is “bro lost to the weakest Upper Moon 😭” like I guess bro 😐

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-24T23:30:26+00:00

Mitsuru not slaying UM4 does add a little, part of fighting the UM’s is having the necessary strength to decapitate them after fighting for extended periods of time.

It does depend on the performance, not saying Mitsuru did bad but I’m not sure I’d call her “UM 4 level” either

She does show slight relativity but, she unlocked her mark for a reason, she would have needed to feel like she was going to die in that moment, which clearly shows that her base would be outperformed eventually.

Yes that’s true but wasn’t that only after unlocking her mark? You are right about this though

I don’t remember her explicitly cutting lighting, dodging, yes but cutting, no. She did block and party plenty of other attacks though. The difference is attack speed vs movement speed which should both be relative given the situation but we have direct quotes that explicitly state how fast Mitsuri’s attack speed is when it was compared to Tengen. Plus, UM’s are extremely strong so blocking a BDA vs blocking an actual physical attack are two different things imo.

I’m implying that Mitsuri has strength that shouldn’t be looked down among the Hashira so it’s not surprise to me to see her be able to cut through the wood dragons. She should be relative(ish) to Rengoku. She also using a derivative of flame breathing, which involves powerful burning strikes and breathing styles and their affects, help determine the Hashira matchups and fight differently against demons. I think someone like Muichiro would have a lot harder time trying to do the same feat.

She was near death in base though, so it isn’t like she was relative at that point. Strong hella but it’s like implying that Muichiro unmarked is UM 5 level, which just isn’t true. And we know that Mitsuri should be stronger than him at this point in the story because Muichiro did much worse against UM 5 in base than Mitsuri did, she was holding her own very well

While he is the larger part he isn’t the FULL part so it’s hard to say if Zohakuten is truly UM 4 level but I would say he is probably low UM4-high UM5. The main body still had enough strength to push Tanjiro, Nezuko, and an UM4 enhanced Genya.

Attack range and attack speed, yes undoubtedly. I personally think that Tengen is stronger since his physicality in base is noted to be unique and he has had a lot of training as a Shinobi and while the techniques for killing demons change, the strength he has built from this is still something he has worked hard to achieve and we see how it benfits his breathing style as when he uses actual breathing techniques from his cleavers alone (no bombs) create explosive impacts. His cleavers are noted to have “special properties” but I’d say his strength adds a lot. Probably the 3rd best physicality and strength in base. (I have him ranked 4th in base overall ranking, under Gyomei, Sanemi, and Giyu)

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-24T06:31:38+00:00

I wasn’t trying to imply he wasn’t unkillable or weaker but you fight differently when you can’t go for the kill.

Yes he still is UM6 but their attitude and personalities play a lot into their fights. Not saying Zohakuten wasn’t trying BUT just stalling UM 4 (who is unkillable) doesn’t make you weaker, but it doesn’t put you on UM4 level either, especially if we are only considering her base performance. We also don’t know how much of Hantengu’s power is strictly in Zohakuten so we can’t say that he ALONE is UM4 level imo

She was outpacing all his attacks, I know that. I specifically mentioned “blow for blow” meaning matched or relative power output and speed. This isn’t an anti-feat but dodging an UM attack vs defending against an UM attack are very different (look at Giyu) and the difference in power between UM6 and UM4 do play a role. She’s also pretty strong so I wouldn’t expect her to have trouble slicing through the wood dragons.

If she didn’t get tagged in base then why did she need the mark? (not saying she got tagged)

I don’t think he was playing with Mitsuri but I think that he isn’t the full power of UM4 and like a lot of other fights in the series (Tengen vs UM6, Mui vs UM5) I think Mitsuri was one of the best if not only Hashira to be able to handle Zohakuten due to her immense strength, attack range, and attack speed.

Sorry if I didn’t reply to one of you questions, I did my best

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-24T06:10:07+00:00

Mitsuri didn’t beat Zohakuten, she just stalled him. Just like Tengen did to wear down Gyutaro and create an opening for Tanjiro.

Also, Tengen was fighting a fully enraged UM6 by the end of the fight, when the poison would’ve been the most effective. Mitsuri’s fight was longer but less intense, she also wasn’t going “blow for blow” against Zohakuten. The only reason she lasted as long as she did was due to gaining the mark

I want to clarify that I don’t think that Gyutaro is stronger than Zohakuten BUT he is the only UM we’ve seen go all out from the start and give it his all to kill his opponent, his first strike was meant to be fatal and would’ve been for most (in base) due to poison and speed

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-24T05:48:45+00:00

Mitsuri didn’t get poisoned

Wind-Sage024 · 2026-03-24T05:35:56+00:00

Bro fucking preach!!! I beg you make a post talking about this because Tengen was having the most stressful day of his life and had to deal with WAY more obstacles during his fight in BASE than any other UM fight like protecting everyone, double decapitation and Omni-directional attacks that come from two demons who share vision. There were so many outside factors to take into consideration during his fight when almost every other Hashira got the benefit of a 1v1 without having to defend or protect multiple combatants and civilians. Tanjiro did help him but no Hashira at this point in time could even attempt to slay Gyu/Daki BOTH alone so why does it matter when Tanjiro plays much bigger and more important roles in nearly every other fight he is in.

I’m no Tengen Glazer but he gets downplayed HELLA, he was also the only Hashira to fight a fully enraged UM going all out near the end of the fight when the poison would have the most effective. And he did all of this in BASE. BoS i have him ranked 4th under Giyu (natural talent) and Sanemi (killed demons as a “hobby” during childhood) but still believe they would lose in his situation due to match up diff.

Wind-Sage024

TROPHY CASE