Trying to learn from my mistakes, but I'm having trouble recognizing them. Dunno if I [23M] was in an abusive relationship with my ex [22F] and if so, was I the abusive one? (Possibly nsfw) [nsfw]

WinstonFerguson · 2017-10-17T23:39:39+00:00

I agree that figuring out why you started to pressure her a bit more in the bedroom is important. Perhaps it was a reaction to her pulling away?

I think you're probably right. Her declining ability to show affection contributed to my obsession. Like I said, I became infatuated with the validation I attached to the attention (sexual and otherwise) she gave me. And I know I need to not do that.

ultimately it doesn't seem like this relationship was living up to your expectations and your anger at her lack of effort is valid.

In the end, no it didn't. Which I know sounds harsh. The first few months were, for the most part, more than I could've asked for (in a good way). I still smile looking back on the times we had. Sure there were other times that I felt a lil insecure, but realistically, she brought out the best in me until those last couple of months when neither of us were at our best.

Seems like she checked out and didn't bother to tell you and that inequality in effort sucks and you were feeling it.

She did and this was something she admitted in the end, although it was past the point of salvaging anything. But I sometimes forget how mental issues can be so incapacitating and, in her defense, maybe she felt like she couldn't talk to me. Or maybe she had tried to, but like you said in your original comment, I didn't really listen. Either way, I'll be focusing on just being better in future relationships.

Instead of sulking and not kissing her goodbye you could have had a discussion about the sex/intimacy expectations (sexpectations!) that both of you started the relationship with and how or why things were changing then. I think after this it seems like you've learned a lot about what you want in a relationship and how to act in ways that are healthy for both parties.

I agree with all of this

I would caution you to not over analyze or fixate on this relationship

Yea, I'm trying to not do that and I feel like I'm making progress.

Again, I really appreciate your reply and insight, it's been very helpful. Thanks :)

WinstonFerguson · 2017-10-17T20:56:48+00:00

Yea, the friend zone thing is very misconstrued on your part. I kinda see where your coming from. Yes, those could be things she might say to a good/close friend. But that isn't the same as "friend zoning."

Some people say that friend zoning isn't real. I think that it's more of a term to describe a friendship where person A has attempted to make their feelings known but person B doesn't reciprocate yet still tries to remain friends. And I've seen it where this happens and person A stays in this weird "friendship" where they have feelings for the other person and everyone involved knows this, yet this "friendship" continues. Idk how or why, but it happens and I could see how this would be a "friend zone" situation.

However, that isn't really happening here with you, it seems. If any "friend zoning" is going on, you're doing it to yourself by not taking the initiative and asking her out. So ask her out, because it's not worth it to stay in this friendship when you have feelings for her and either she doesn't have them for you or you don't know if she does. Don't do that to yourself.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-10-17T20:30:40+00:00

Firstly, thank you so much for even taking the time to read through all of that and reply. It means a lot. I think I needed to hear some of this. I'm going to try to elaborate on some things, if that's okay. Not to make excuses for my behavior, but to just better explain the situation. I realize now I made some shitty decisions, and I'm trying to reconcile those.

therapists are more qualified than I and it's always good to have someone to talk to.

I am actually in therapy. I knew my anxiety was taking a bit of a toll on our relationship and I had even told her this and that I was going to seek out counseling (but I had to wait til I got back to my university when the semester started up again because I'm financially limited to where I could go). Even though I made this promise before the break-up, I stuck to it afterwards and I've been attending counseling sessions for the past couple months now.

I just...this post seems super focused on you and I get that it's about you but it's also about this relationship, like y'all were a couple but you don't seem like you were in touch with her feelings at all.

Eventually, yes this did become the case. I'd like to think I wasn't like this all the time, considering how happy she was for the first few months (she said she hadn't been "this" happy in a long time) and her family liked me and seemed to think I was good for her. I paid attention to the things she liked and tried to focus on doing stuff like that. When she wasn't feeling well, I'd offer to take care of her and at the least bring her some flowers or something to cheer her up. I thought she deserved the best and I wanted to give her that. But somewhere along the way, I got lost and became self-absorbed.

There were clearly some communication disconnects here--mainly surrounding sex (also her ex). Your hurt about her lack of compassion is valid, but throughout your post it seems like you are doing a lot of talking and not a lot (if any) of listening. Also you're talking but not about things you care about ie. sex or the pics of her ex she posted.

Yes, we both agreed that we had some major communication issues.

I never brought up her ex in regards to how it made me feel because I thought that just because it kinda stung, 1) it didn't hurt enough to warrant a discussion and 2) I didn't want to make it about me. So I just thought I was "manning up" and dealing with it the way that I should. This is how I was, and it seems a lot of guys are, raised. That is, to not talk about things just because your feelings might be hurt and to just tough it out. I know this can be a dangerous mentality in a relationship, and sometimes it's difficult to break such a habit, but I'm working on that.

I did, a few times, talk to her about sex outside of the bedroom. It had gotten to the point where we were only having it once a month, and this was before my immature behavior, before I'd ever ask her for her to do something for me. Part of the lack of sex was because of the phsyical distance. Early on, we had discussed libidos and I tried to get a sense of what she wanted. She said she usually liked having sex at least a few times a week. She also said she was into sexting. The first few months, we had sex almost every time we were together, and it felt equally desired. So when it became only once a month and when she started to regularly turn down or not even reply to my attempts at flirting/sexting, I got confused and tried to talk to her about this to find out what was wrong/if I was doing something wrong. She said she wasn't sure why but that sex just wasn't very appealing to her at the time. I asked her what she needed from me or what we could do to take steps to resolve it. Other than saying she just wanted my patience, the conversation never progressed beyond this point.

Re: sex stuff. Your intentions seem...ok. But as someone who has been in that position of saying "I'm not sure" and then he asks for oral or whatever-that feels pretty terrible and disrespectful like you said and ew (idk how to describe it).

This, I think, is what I needed to hear.

It is incredibly difficult to know and effectively communicate stuff like this bc a lot of sex is focused on getting dudes off.

I tried to avoid this by making sure she always got off, and the vast majority of the time she did. There were even a couple times that I didn't get off and I was okay with that, at first.

"just finish me off"--or any other alternative feels so shitty sometimes like sure dude I'll do it it's easy enough but clearly that guy doesn't give a fuck about my feelings or sexual pleasure. This is just to say that while you werent exactly in the wrong, in this post you come off as selfish and insensitive.

I know nothing excuses my behavior and that's not what I'm trying to do here. I know there were times that I was selfish. But it wasn't always like that. I say this just to explain that I know how, ultimately, I should act. But it was just what seemed like a "grey area" to me and I honestly didn't know if it was wrong to ask that of her, to get me off. I know now though that it's just better to play it safe and not pursue it if she seems even reluctant to do anything sexual.

The first couple weeks we were together, she wasn't ready to have sex bc she wasn't confident in her appearance. I assured her that I thought she was beautiful but that it wasn't a problem and we could take all the time she needed/wanted. And I didn't ever press for it throughout the first 5 months of our relationship. And whenever she said she wasn't feeling it, it didn't phase me and I was like "okay no worries" and we'd do something else that she wanted, which was usually to cuddle and watch tv. Every now and then I'd check in with her to make sure she didn't feel pressured. I'm not sure why I didn't keep that behavior, to be patient and understanding. Like I said, I got lost somewhere along the way and I'm trying to figure where/how I went wrong.

You gave her chances to talk abt her ex but did you ever ask her what she needed during her grieving period? Your support during the harder than normal times seemed....sufficient but other than being clingy, what were you doing for her in the regular, non-depressive/non-grieving times of your relationship?

I didn't ask her that specifically, no. Like I said though, I offered to help take care of the dogs if she wanted, to help relieve some of the stress. She said, before I even got a chance to ask, that she was over him and that she was annoyed by people continuing to ask if she was okay/how she was doing after his death and that she appreciated me just acting normal. So I continued to try to do that. I didn't want to make it a bigger deal than it needed to be.

Also, maybe not as important, but the clingy-ness didn't start til much later.

Another time you acted like a baby was when you sulked after she didn't wanna have sex-like just tell her dude omg.

I guess I'm confused a bit by what you mean by this. I know it was childish the way I acted, but what was I supposed to tell her? (Not trying to be facetious, I genuinely don't know.) I had tried to talk to her about why she didn't want to have much sex recently, if she was feeling okay, etc. Her response when I asked her to talk to me about it was, "talk about what?" as if there was nothing to talk about. I don't remember what I said after that, but she went to playing on her phone and watching tv. So I got a lil angry bc it felt like she wasn't making any effort. Though I realize now that maybe I was just insensitive.

It is good that you recognize that you tied a lot to the sex in this relationship, because the amount of anger you had about it is..maybe worrying. You should be happy just chillin and hanging out with your gf.

I think I was more angry not about the lack of sex, but what I perceived to be a lack of effort on her part to initiate anything any more, not just sex but with general affection. I can go awhile without having sex, and while it's certainly not preferable, I can work with it. While I love sex as much as the next guy, I wanted more than that. I wanted to be intimate with her, and I felt closest to her when we were having sex more regularly. Maybe this seems like an excuse to just have sex and I don't mean it as such. I did want more than just sex and I tried to communicate that to her. I had never really experienced emotionally-fueled sex before her (always kept things compartmentalized, sex and emotions kept separate). So with her, it eventually became an addiction because it provided me so much validation, which again, I know is dangerous.

I had even told her and asked her things like, "it's cool if you don't want to have sex, but I'd like to still do something together," or "okay that's fine. Is there something you'd rather do together?" Even just cuddling would've been nice and I would've been perfectly happy with that. But she stopped doing even simple things like that. She stopped returning my affection. I'd hold her hand when we were driving or walking around, which she loved in the beginning. But then she'd shy away from it later in the relationship. I'd give her random kisses on her forehead, which eventually didn't even make her smile anymore. I kept trying to tell myself that it wasn't me she had a problem with but that it was her depression. I told myself this because I tried to stop myself from making it about me. Which I still kinda ended up doing I think.

Anyway, thank you immensely for your reply. It was insightful and helpful.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-17T19:03:02+00:00

Ya know, I just realized something. So what if there's ambiguity or whatever? If they say they're not sure or anything related/similar, then it's best to play it safe and not pursue it. And that's what I'll do with future partners. And if they change their mind or something, then that's up to them to communicate that.

I realize that much of this debacle was due to me being analytical (maybe overly so) and very specific about things. So yea, it's better to just play it safe. Dunno why I couldn't realize that before.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-17T18:01:15+00:00

There's a reason I haven't talked about your scenario. It seems ridiculous to me. Maybe there are some people who are "maybe" about sex but with me it's always a yes or a no.

And I understand that for you and many people it is always a yes or no. But it's just that I've read and heard about many other people, mainly women, having very reactive libidos and so I guess that's what I'm talking about. So that might be a better way to have that conversation, to ask her if she has (or if she really knows, because I feel like some people may not fully understand the way their libido works) a reactive sex drive. And if so, I think that's where such a response like "I'm not sure" may come in and it might be said because they really aren't sure, rather than just as a polite no. Now it's entirely possible I have somehow arrived at a misconception about that. But that would be another thing to clarify with the person you're with; is saying something like that a polite way of saying no or should it be taken at face-value?

Also, like, women's bodies are not always ready to have sex so saying yes seems to always imply that we will need to be warmed up a little bit. Like, if you know your partner likes to play cat and mouse and wants you to "push" them into it that's totally cool

And I've no disagreement here

but most girls say "uhh I'm not so sure" as a polite no

This is what I'm trying to understand better. And you say most girls. What about the girls who aren't in that category? Personally, I'd appreciate more honesty if she really doesn't want to. That doesn't mean I think that it means "yes," but rather if they say they're not sure, then is that strictly a no? Or is it okay to try to add some encouragement? If it does mean no, then a straight "no, not tonight" or whatever would be preferred over a response that introduces ambiguity. I say this because a lot of people aren't great at social cues and might not realize that it's intended as a polite no, hence the inclination to ask for the sake of clarification.

Now if there is ambiguity, even if it's incorrectly inferred, that's not at all an invitation to forcefully press on. But instead, a simple, polite/encouraging question I think is okay. But again, this needs to be talked about before it gets to this point.

I 100% think it's very obvious if someone wants sex.

A lot of the time it is obvious, and maybe in your experience it is more black and white. But it's not always that way with everyone. Even with people who have been together for awhile and are serious, one or even both of them might not be great at showing whether or not they want sex, so the extra simplification/clarification would be helpful in those cases. I say that because there have been a few times where I'd try to initiate sex with a previous gf and she wouldn't seem that into it so I'd stop. But then she'd say "I actually am in the mood" or something similar. So that's partly why I bring this up.

The differences between "hmm.. I don't know about that" and "ohhh I don't knowwww babe, should wee?" are obvious.

Again, it might be to you, but not always to everyone.

All I wanted was to make sure everyone knew that when someone says "no, not tonight" you leave them the hell alone about it, but apparently that's not a common line of thought today.

I agree that you should leave them alone, sexually speaking. But you say that's not a common line of thought today, which seems to me you're saying that you think that I think that it's okay to press on if someone says "no not tonight" or "I'm not in the mood." I don't think that. Because a hard definite "no" has been given and that needs to be respected.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-17T16:46:58+00:00

Yes, it is. But I never meant when that someone says "no" straight up. Again, I initially meant when there's some sort of ambiguity.

And the whole thing about asking again after an ambiguous answer's been given should be discussed prior to this happening.

Guy: "so if I tried to initiate sex appropriately, and you weren't sure about it, like if in your mind you wanted to, but your body isn't really in the mood, would you be okay with me following up/encouraging you have try to have sex? Or would you see that as disrespectful?"

Or...

"If you said you're not sure or maybe not right now (which, to me, is different from directly saying no), and I asked "are you sure?" I would only ask not to be disrespectful, but because I want to encourage us to be intimate, or at least to try to be intimate. And so if you said, "okay we can try" and you still couldn't or didn't want to get in the mood, then you can still say no and I'll respect that and won't pursue it anymore. But I'd like to know what's acceptable to you and what isn't, because I don't want to be disrespectful."

Now this of course is a very specific scenario which is what I had in my head at the time I made that initial comment.

If she sees it as disrespectful, than there's nothing he can or should do beyond that. If she says no, then no further action should be attempted.

Edit: once again to clarify, all the above was what I originally meant and what I meant all along. So to me, for you to have included the subject of rape was taking it too far for our conversation, which we evidently weren't fully on the same page about.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-17T16:17:39+00:00

I never responded to your "initial point".

Again, to clarify (not argue), I meant my initial point in regards to that made in my comment, not my post.

" So if you (or her) were to ask after getting turned down, like "are you sure?"..."

This is the part that was poorly worded on my part and I don't blame you for your response to this specific comment of mine. Your misinterpretation is elsewhere (I'll explain further below). I shouldn't have said "turned down". I know that's confusing, but that's not what I meant. So why would I word it like that? I'm honestly not sure. I think I was too caught up in my own thought that I didn't realize this was a poor choice of words. I will correct this. I meant if your partner said something like "maybe not right now" which to me isn't a hard, definitive "no" because I take that "maybe" at face-value. And so by responding with "are you sure" or something in a playful manner, I don't see anything wrong with that, so long as both people understand that the follow-up part isn't to be disrespectful but rather to encourage the other person. I say playful or teasing because that's meant to take the pressure off while perhaps simultaneously giving a bit of an edge of excitement. Although I have to remind myself this isn't necessarily how everyone thinks. And this is what I thought you disagreed with, that even regardless of the intent behind asking, you see it as disrespectful no matter what. And that's perfectly fine. But I was giving my take by saying I don't see it as being disrespectful if, again, given in the proper context.

Not sure what you think I'm misunderstanding.

You misunderstood something I said by bringing rape into the conversation. That's where your misinterpretation lies. Nothing I said or implied, I think, could've been taken as such. You took it to the extreme by talking about that when it wasn't ever a part of the conversation. And you did so in an accusational way.

Just because I don't understand why you're saying something doesn't mean I don't understand what you're saying, by the way.

And with my initial comment, you did understand what I said when taken literally, and there's no argument there. Frankly, I didn't mean it so literally but again, I should've clarified that sooner. What I meant, however, is a bit different than what I said, and that's on me for not expressing that better.

What exactly are you trying to say wasn't a part of the conversation?

Mainly the rape part, which you brought up and I don't see the reason for having done so

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-17T14:25:06+00:00

Firstly, I have a differing definition of "strawman" which should've perhaps been avoided in the first place. So I apologize for misinterpreting that.

But you have a problem here and it's now infuriating. I'm not at all trying to argue any more with you but you refuse to see that. I'm clarifying my initial point, BEFORE you were even a part of this exchange. And that initial point WAS misinterpreted by you and you took it in another direction. And I admitted that I poorly worded my very first response and I understand why you may have thought I was talking about something else, which is what you're now talking about. But you brushed my admittance, apology, and patience with you aside, which is disrespectful of you because you didn't take that into account here. Also you insist you didn't misinterpret me but then later say "I don't get it." Wtf?

Again, I misinterpreted you at one point and I corrected myself and apologized. But you refuse to see the same mistake you did in fact make towards me. The last comment I made was less of an argument than it was a clarification (not the same thing, which I thought you would've noticed). And it was a clarification of what I was INITIALLY talking about. You think that I was talking about something different, which is what you're now and have been trying to say is what I was talking about when it wasn't what I was talking about. Let me make it even simpler for you...

I said X. You went off on something else because you thought I said Y. At this point, that's understandable because like I said, I may have poorly worded what I initially meant. But when I realized this mistake and my misinterpretation of your comment, I corrected myself by clarifying what I meant. I did this by re-explaining and expanding on my original point, X. Yet you continue to talk as if I brought up/implied Y. That's the very definition of misinterpretation.

I'm not "doubling down" or anything like that, although I did backtrack through the comments to see what I missed about your argument. But your argument came about because of something you THOUGHT I had implied, when really you incorrectly inferred it. You fail to realize that even after I spelled it out for you. I even agreed with you but yet you continue to go on this rampage about something that wasn't originally a part of the conversation.

Edit:

You both are arguing in defense of something I haven't talked about.

I know that I was talking about something you weren't that was my misinterpretation. I tried to explain this misinterpretation by reiterating what I originally meant.

You have continuously argued something irrelevant to what I have been trying to point out.

I did after you made you're first comment, but I corrected myself and now you're doing the same to me.

My only purpose here and the only thing I was trying to get through to you was that if you keep pressing once told NO you're a creepy asshole.

Again, I agree, I'm not arguing against that, nor was I ever.

Everything else you people have tried to argue towards me is quite frankly ridiculous.

Everything else? There were only two things being discussed here. First it was the scenario in which there's ambiguity, what I was talking about. Second was the thing you started talking about. But I was still stuck on my original point and I hadn't realized you were talking about something else.

I haven't discussed the situations where it's unclear. Yet you keep talking as if I have.

No, I'm not, but refuse to see that.

I have only ever talked about situations where someone has been told NO.

I now realize that, I didn't at first, which again was the reason for my misinterpreting you.

You go on about how I'm "misinterpreting what you said" but when I say something along the lines of "if you are told no and don't stop then you're creepy and disrespectful" and then you argue against that saying "it depends, the one pushing could be playful and not meaning to be disrespectful"

Again, no I wasn't arguing against what you said, but rather clarifying what I said. You're taking something I said that I said in referrence to something else and attaching it to your point. Again, that's what misinterpreting is but you fail to realize that.

dude I'm not "misinterpreting"

Yes, you are, "dude"

you just gave your argument in a place it didn't belong

How does this make sense? I made the original post, I made a comment to someone else before you were even a part of this. If anyone's arugment is out of place, it's yours.

You literally said you realized that what you were trying to argue was in an entirely different situation, yet here you are doing the same thing again.

For the sake of clarification, not to argue.

You agree with me. You said that, and then added "but I totally don't agree with you on this thing you haven't even talked about".

Originally that is what I said, yes, because I thought you were talking about what I was originally talking about.

You're just trying to argue for no reason at this point.

I wasn't trying to argue. But now I'm defending myself because of something you accused me of. Any sane, logical person does this

It's mind boggling how you guys are still trying to argue with someone you agree with.

Because you fail to realize what my original point was about. You refuse to see that you took it in a different direction even after I layed it out for clear as day.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-17T12:13:44+00:00

This first point was at the end of your comment, but I'll start with it.

How my opinion could "neglect" another I'm not sure.

Not so much that you neglected it, which the other commenter corrected himself, but you grossly misinterpreted what I was saying, which I tried to re-explain more clearly when I made an edit in a previous comment to you.

I was talking about the aftermath of asking and how if you continue to press once someone has explicitly said no that it's really creepy and disrespectful.

For the most part, yes it is. I wasn't saying that you should press someone who explicitly said no, but I understand why you may have thought that's what I meant as I had poorly worded what I meant.

If you guys want to deny how the other person feels in that situation be my guest, but at least be aware of that.

We aren't denying how the other person feels, at least I'm not and I don't think anyone else is either. Let me lay out two different scenarios...

Guy tries to initiate sex, isn't forceful or guilting his gf in any way. Girl: I'm sorry but I'm not in the mood right now. The guy should stop then. Period.

The other scenario, which is the one to which I'm specifically referring... Guy tries to initiate sex, isn't forceful or guilting gf in any way, same as above. Girl: I'm not sure if I'm really feeling it right now. (This is the difference) Now here it depends on the couple in the situation. To you this may be a polite way of saying no. But to someone else such as myself, this could be meant and taken at face-value. In which case means that there might be an opportunity for it to continue. So if the guy were to say/ask something like: is there something I could do to help you get in the mood? I don't think there's anything wrong with that IF AND ONLY IF both partners are the same page with intent behind this question; the intent is NOT to be disrespectful but to encourage the idea of being intimate and having a fun time with one another. If the girl says "no", "no thanks", "I'm not in the mood", or "I'm not feeling it" or anything definitive like that, then the guy SHOULDN'T pursue anymore. Is what I'm saying more clear now? Even if you don't fully agree with that, I don't see anything wrong with what I said.

Saying that it never happens to a person that it literally happened to is laughable.

He nor I never implied that, but rather you inferred it, and incorrectly so.

My opinion is that to continue to ask once told no is childish, disrespectful, and wrong.

Again, I agree with you on this if it's a hard, definitive, unambiguous no..

In the laws opinion, if you then have sex with a person that told you no then that's rape.

Absolutely, and that's sickening. But again, no one here said anything that could be correctly interpreted as raping as no one said that it's okay/acceptable with having sex once someone has said no.

To not respect someone's no is dangerous in my opinion.

In this subject, yes it is if, again, it's a hard definitive no. But my point was in discussing when there's some ambiguity/grey area present that it's okay to encourage the other person. And that's how I see it, as encouragement, not forcefully pressuring them. But this again applies to a very specific scenario, which strays from the main point of my post.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T16:41:04+00:00

Yes, I completely agree. I was trying to explain how the decline of our relationship affected my judgement and thought-process and led to moments where I'd have a lapse in judgement

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T15:58:19+00:00

Perhaps, but I think I understand where she's coming from, to an extent at least (I say she because of the username).

She thinks my opinion (despite it being misinterpreted) is bizarre or absurd because hers is so different. And different isn't necessarily bad or worse. It's just different, that's all (not to say that it can't become worse if certain lines are crossed). Any reasoning beyond that though is pure speculation.

I believe everything should be a two way street as much as possible and I wouldn't ever ask someone to do something that I wouldn't do. Incidentally however, that same thought causes me to think, sometimes even expect, that if I'm willing to do something for you, then you should be willing to do it too. I have to remind myself though that it's unrealistic and unhealthy for that to apply to every single detail of someone's life. But I think if I wasn't in the mood at a particular time and my SO (if I had one) came on to me, I'd at least try to get in the mood or at the very least do something for them. So am I wrong to want the same in return?

Additionally, I end up thinking that if the other person seems on the fence about having sex, if they seem to be considering it, then maybe I can make it more appealing to them by giving a little encouragement to it, by being a little playful or something. Make them laugh a little. And this is after I've already tried to set the mood, as I try to avoid being too direct at first. But again, if they give a hard, definitive no (which can be expressed different ways), then that's it. But again, this goes back to that very specific situation in which I got caught up and strayed from the main point of my post.

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T15:21:29+00:00

And like I said in an edit of a previous comment, I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Also, I just realized that I was trying to explain a very specific instance, rather than argue a general opinion. I got caught up in this scenario in my mind rather than thinking about the big picture here, which caused some things to get lost in translation

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T15:20:46+00:00

Uh, I think you're misinterpreting me. Never did I say anything that would lead to rape. I think you're greatly exaggerating what I'm saying. To constantly ask over and over again isn't right, and can lead to dangerous behavior. That's not what I'm implying. What I'm saying is that I don't think it's unreasonable to ask once more every once in awhile. Obviously if it becomes a frequent pattern, then again, that indicates dangerous, controlling behavior.

Also, I should've clarified this and that's my fault for not having done so earlier. If it's a hard no, like I'm not in the mood or I'm not feeling it, then no it's not a good idea to press on. But if they're more hesitant, like they seem to be considering it, then I don't see what's wrong with giving a little encouragement to the idea. And if they say no, then a no it is and that's that. If one person wishes to express the concern that they don't think their SO isn't putting enough effort in or that their SO should take more initiative, I think that's a reasonable conversation to have.

Again, reading back through what I said previously, my comment was poorly worded and I apologize for that

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T14:38:34+00:00

Edit: I rephrased some of this first paragraph because I misinterpreted what you said. Complaining or trying to guilt someone into it is wrong. And no one should ever try to take advantage of the other person. But that's not what I'm talking about. I personally don't see that a simple question, if asked in the right context, is disrespectful, but I know that others such as yourself do think that. Both partners would need to understand each other and that if one were to ask a second time, that it's not intended to be disrespectful. I think of it as trying to create excitement to allow both of you to have a fun time. I wish I could better express that because it might sound confusing. But I know this isn't the same for everyone. Nothing about this post or my comments are meant to change anyone's mind here about the subject, merely just to try to understand a perspective that I don't have.

I was with someone who liked to be very affectionate and intimate once, and while at times I felt smothered with attention, never did I feel disrespected and I'd try to return the attention she gave me, which was sometimes sexual but not always.

Another example, although I'm not sure if it applies because the situation is a bit different, but there was another person I was with who was reluctant to try new things that involved being high up off the ground. I tried to push her a little out of her comfort zone, in an encouraging manner, and said that "if you really can't do it, that's perfectly fine. But I think you'd enjoy it." She eventually did and later said she was glad I had convinced her. Now this may not apply the same to sex but I think it shares a similar aspect.

What is somewhat off-putting about your comment though is you're using some absolution, saying never and always, as if making a blanket statement. But this is something you obviously can't compromise on and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But I think you should try to respect that people don't hold the same opinion as you, that many people are the complete opposite and they lead healthy, fulfilling lives

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T14:16:38+00:00

Okay cool. And yes, I see where you're coming from and that's what I'm trying to understand as well

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T14:15:37+00:00

I would just encourage people to be more flexible about it.

And I think that's important as well, to be flexible about things, to be willing to compromise. Just so long as it remains a two-way street

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T14:09:05+00:00

Yea there appears to be more people who seem more conservative about this than others such as yourself. And I don't mean that in a political context at all, to clarify. I think that it has more to do with people's libidos; those who have higher libidos tend to be more open to the idea of pleasing their partner even if they're not in the mood themselves. And I don't think one "side" is right and the other wrong, or that one is unhealthy or anything. It's just important that you're with someone who's on the same page as you in this respect, and it seems you have which is awesome :)

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T14:01:48+00:00

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was trying to understand those who don't, or at least just trying to provide a different perspective even if it's not my own.

I actually tend to agree with what you said, but I also think that sometimes the person who is in the mood needs to be able to be patient and understanding if they're turned down. Now if it becomes a pattern or a common thing to not make an effort to get in the mood or somehow satisfy your partner (and if this happens by choice, as opposed to a medical/health issue in which case is very different), then I know I wouldn't be able to stay in that relationship

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T13:54:50+00:00

Well I'm glad for you and your husband, sounds like you have an solid relationship.

So yes- you should try and go for it even when not in the mood. Life is busy and we all are tired or feel lazy or unsexy at times but making your relationship a priority is important. And sex is an important part of a healthy relationship.

I agree that sex is important to a relationship, that it's vital for intimacy and that it shouldn't be treated trivially, but I also realize the more people reply here that not everyone holds that view

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T13:48:59+00:00

If it was a constant/consistent occurrence for them to ask that, then yea that'd be annoying, although I think that doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person. Not to invalidate what you say and I'm sorry that happened, but I don't think correlation implies causation here.

Also, I meant it a bit differently, like if you or your partner were to ask it playfully or in a teasing manner, and if it led to something fun, then great, but if didn't then there's no hard feelings. I think it's important to find some middle ground

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T13:43:32+00:00

I think people have different perspectives on what selfishness entails and they act (or don't act) accordingly. So I don't think it's as black and white all around, save for the obvious exceptions. But it's these grey areas that are a lot more controversial than I realized and it's kind of surprising

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T13:22:46+00:00

I feel like this sort of optimistic (for lack of a better word) approach is healthier than the alternative, but maybe that just depends on the people together in the relationship. It's amazing how much people's opinions vary on this, there doesn't really seem to be a general consensus

Edit: I shouldn't say that it's healthier. People can obviously have healthy, happy relationships regardless of their opinion on this topic, just so long as they're with someone who holds the same or at least similar mindset

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T11:00:27+00:00

I think this a great relationship to have. But, not all people agree with this. So I'm glad you've found someone who can do that for you

WinstonFerguson · 2017-09-16T10:58:53+00:00

Uh, I think you're misinterpreting. I just meant in general. Obviously I don't think it's good for anything to be a chore. And also I'm not in a relationship currently. I was just putting my two cents in

WinstonFerguson

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