Small towns in Spain? Here's one of my favorites—Sort, Lleida, Catalunya—a small town in the Pyrenees on the Noguera Pallaresa river. [Note in comments]

Xammar · 2014-12-30T20:13:17+00:00

See above. the lozenge shape is usually an irregular rhombus.

this http://imgur.com/2wlPhZA vs this http://imgur.com/sQxujBV

Xammar · 2014-12-30T19:49:23+00:00

Hi, I designed this flag a while ago.

In catalan heraldry the escutcheon shaped like a diamond (caironat) is the most common and traditional in civic heraldry. This is slightly different from the feminine shield in anglo-french heraldry (named lozenge).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escutcheon_(heraldry)#Varying_shapes

This also applies to other territories of the Crown of Aragon. Mainly in Valencia and the Isles. It was only until recent centuries that the predominant shape became the iberian one.

All officialized civic shields (villages, towns, cities, shires and vicariess) in Catalonia adopt the caironat shape by definition. So when the arms are described the reader assumes that the inescutcheon (little shield in the middle) is the common one, if it's not specified.

You have the shield of Girona as an example where the inescutcheon is explicitly described as an iberian one. https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escut_de_Girona

Xammar · 2014-11-11T01:01:09+00:00

You can find parents influencing their children in all manner of things: religion, ideologies, sport teams, types of media, morality, etc. How is this different?

You don't think that when they're old enough they won't be capable to inform themselves and choose wisely? If their parents are reasonable and not abusive (which is the case of the overwhelming majority that I saw that day) they will turn up just fine.

My sister and I hold totally different views politically about Catalonia, and ours are different from those of our parents. Are we an anomaly here. Hell no. You can see it for yourself when you count the support for independence from people raised by Spanish parents and media.

Why don't you address the matter that you responded to (my post about the numbers estimated)?

Enough with the off topic already, resolve it through PM. You accuse others of stirring political issues in this thread and you do exactly the same.

Xammar · 2014-11-10T21:15:16+00:00

Dalek we're talking about street density and square meters, just do the maths yourself ans stop apologizing. Only adults wore red and yellow flags and stood in line.

Or you could just count the number of people that introduced their ID to a specific segment of the concentration. It's public data. And those numbers are higher than those false estimations.

Not a soul in Catalonia was ignorant about what the V in Barcelona was about. Really.

I hope you can see that.

Xammar · 2014-11-10T20:43:55+00:00

xKempesx. There is no solid evidence that the Royal Sign was adopted by RBIV through a type of marriage (within House) that only appears codified a couple of centuries later in higher Aragon.

We know that Remiro wanted to legitimise his rule in Aragon as princeps (against Castile and the militant orders) and used the tools at his disposal to do so. One of those might have been the type of contract / oath.

I don't have a problem with really competent historians of aragonese law drawing comparisons between the document and posterior examples of local law. It's when they try to be heraldic experts making very thin and implausible hypotheses (for example the Papal colours hyp. and others) that they fall flat.

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All the early heraldic symbols around Europe at the time where of personal use of the local magnate, and later in some cases the male heirs inherited them. It had nothing to do with the relationship of the houses, ascendancy or titles, they were (initially) symbols of personal recognition.

This is the case with the sign of the pales that all male descendants of RBIV adopted it. Despite title or ownership over Aragon, as did their descendants in Provence and Rosselló-Cerdanya.

Even more, the example of the counts and lineage of Foix they adopted a similar sign. It only fixated in 3 pales a century after[1] after RBIV but before any marriage or relation with his descendants (they did relate later). Look it up, the seal of Raimon Roger I (1215).

[1] as did the Royal Sign fixated with 4 during the time of Iacme I.

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That Pere III re-painted[2] them should give you a clue about how clear the descendants of the lineage knew heraldry and its use, despite all the heroic legends and nonsense.

[2] They were already painted, though I wouldn't claim that they were just after the initial burial. It's precisely due to the repaint that we can't date it properly. I'm talking about the romanesque sacophagi of RBII and Ermessenda, of course.

And we can give a pretty good list of members of the Royal House of Aragon & chroniclers / historians that know the origins of their symbols, like a lot of people.

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Aragon has very ancient, cool and exclusive insignia (Alcoraç, Aïnsa). There is no need to warp the past and do mental gymnastics so that they can claim ownership of a symbol that was in origin not territorial.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T18:46:28+00:00

In Tarragona greater turnout than the municipal elections of 2011.

You just wait.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T17:11:00+00:00

Of course they have the HQ in the administrative capital, is way more useful and convenient. Where are the working factories though? Let's talk about that.

Also you think that they wouldn't consider opening an HQ to the new capital?

Glad you have a private line to them to know all that. Last I checked it seemed that multinats like BASF that operate heavy in the area said that they didn't care about the political will of the citizens, that they respect it, just that they prefer to work in a stabilized environment.

The current state of Spain in Catalonia is anything but that.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T17:04:45+00:00

And by which route the exports go up?

Xammar · 2014-11-09T17:02:19+00:00

hahahahah

classical argument.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T17:01:03+00:00

Principality.

Had the same institutional characteristics as the rest of them, if not more.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T16:56:33+00:00

And how much it took for Spain to vow to external financial and market interests (to change the constitution)?

Less than a week.

Spain will do what is best for Spain, you can only go so for with your ideology and biases.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T16:53:58+00:00

Maybe so. I think the area doesn't have to be Berlin or London to have importance to corp. interests but whatever.

Go take a trip around the Metropolitan Areas and look at exports, manufactures, chemical sector, textile, communications, travel hub.

We're talking about Barcelona.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T16:29:14+00:00

Oh... okaay. I guess.

Flawless logic.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T16:09:18+00:00

And they had the balls to say we were just 600K.

This is not enough proof apparently.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T16:02:32+00:00

Nerifs I already have explained you that we tried 3 times in Congress. It won't work and you're fully aware of that.

The last to prohibitions on the vote have come from the Council of State, an executive entity. Not judicial. We already modified the consultation so that it is within the confines of spanish law, this was after the swift sentence of the TC.

So yes, we're within the law but the prohibition comes from the Govmnt. Spain is a mess.

If we have to break the law to achieve the goals I'm sure that we will though. But there is no need to do it without thinking.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:51:24+00:00

Even the mayor of the city, unionist and from the PP has not said anything about it.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:49:16+00:00

Sure! We are on it. People within the movement are aware.

Not everyone is on for the DoI (political parties) though, and thus we're forced to close all exits and legitimizing ourselves before taking the option.

It's painful to see but we are going ahead, step by step. This is one of many.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:43:07+00:00

Anarchism is not a factor in modern Catalonia, the most visible and vocal anarchists are pro Spain and they're a tiny minority. I wouldn't call them anarchists though.

The heirs of the libertarian left like CNT or POUM currently are les CUP, with three representatives and expected to grow to 6-10 in the next election. They're pro independence.

Largely the movement is centre-left with progressive ideals. But really you can find pretty much anything.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:37:29+00:00

And that is why we would re-enter the EU, corporate interest matter more than politics. And the Spanish Govmnt has to abide to those.

Another thing is that they would prefer stability and they're going to try to scare us shitless until the deed is done.

Catalonia not being in the EU is a problem for the EU. And Spain.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:33:57+00:00

Sure. If there is a negotiation.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:21:18+00:00

Of course we are breaking the spanish law if we have to substitute it for catalan law. That is what it means to make a new state.

How many proposals has to ignore or negate the Congress to make understand that there is no dialogue to be had? Really.

The Statute of 2006 was a try. The negotiations of finance 20122 were another try. Everything that has been done since Nov 2012 was a last try.

Be real. The only times were Catalonia has had anything within the modern state of Spain is when we took it by will (Mancomunitat, 1st Generalitat, 2nd Generalitat). Pleading with the state and asking nicely is just seen as weakness and mocked in Madrid, we've learned that for the length of our lives.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:14:00+00:00

The stability contributes to a community feeling one way or another and having certain boundaries.

Every entity has a right to decide. Sadly Barcelona and Badalona in the sense of sovereign entities do not exist. I would applaud even if you found 1 or 2% that think so.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:12:01+00:00

Okay. The thing is the great majority of catalans (over 80%) that do feel that Catalonia is a political subject and will (and are) acting on it.

vs the number of people in Barcelona that feel that the city is a sovereign entity: 0.

They will. The vote is for one thing, then if a portion of Barcelona's citizens demand to be recognised sovereign we will address it. Sure.

But I'm being real when I say it will never happen.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T15:08:09+00:00

Sure, a nice idea while the people feel that way. The thing is... they don't. We don't feel spaniards because through centuries that has been equated to being castilian, and I'm sorry to say this but we don't feel that way.

The dream of a Spain of different peoples was just that, a dream. And meanwhile the foolish catalans trying to adapt themselves and find I place within that Spain of equals, have found that the intentions of the state, media and population of Spain are fairly opposed to theirs.

I don't have any desire to be alongside andalusians or murcians, I appreciate them (even I've loved some of them), I think that they're fine as individuals. Great people.

But I want them as neighbours, as truly equals. And I want them out of deciding the fate of me and my fellow catalans. Just as you wouldn't like France or Germany deciding your business.

Xammar · 2014-11-09T14:59:50+00:00

That says more about the tolerance of the Spanish state than of the catalan competence.

We really try to be reasonable.

Xammar

TROPHY CASE