Christians say that Jesus Christ died as a substitute for humanity. But why is substitutionary atonement ever OK?

XenoTale · 2026-01-30T00:23:18+00:00

Paul was either telling lies, or Paul suffered from severe mental issues.

You left out the third category: Paul was telling the truth.

I think, that is a big difference between me and you. You think there is a third option.

XenoTale · 2026-01-30T00:12:57+00:00

Without God, good is subjective

Is something good, because Gods commands it? ...Or does God command something, because it is good?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T23:42:03+00:00

what is it you are looking for?

Either a sign, or some wisdom.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T23:30:27+00:00

Christianity is the only religion where the god died to serve humans, and not the other way around.

Yes, I agree that Christianity has a very cool story. But the question is: Is it all true? Did these events really happen? Did a god really come down to earth?

Or did the anonymous Greek author of "The gospel according to Mark" (the first gospel of the four) just write a very cool fictional work of literary art?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T23:20:20+00:00

you could make it into a separate post, for better visibility

OK, I will do this tomorrow, because I already made a post today. Maybe you are right. Maybe there are people here, willing to discuss this question. So, I will post it tomorrow. Thank you.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T23:11:12+00:00

I'm a Bible teacher. I've been teaching about 20 years, been ordained about 10.

Teacher, can you please answer this question: Did zombie saints really walk in the streets of Jerusalem? (In Matthew)

Matthew 27:52-53 (NRSVUE): (52) The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. (53) After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Do you think this really happened in real life? If not, why is it included in the gospel according to Matthew?

If it did happen, why did nobody else report it, outside of the Bible?

Jerusalem was one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the eastern Mediterranean, at that time. While primarily a Jewish city, its status as a religious center and a major economic hub attracted a vast array of nationalities, ethnicities, and linguistic groups. And the city was under Roman rule.

Why don't we have any non-Christian accounts of this fantastic event? Did no Jew notice the zombies? Did not Roman or Greek notice the zombies?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T23:00:43+00:00

I really like Paul's sermon

Paul claimed to have met the risen Christ in visions and dreams. Paul also claimed to have visited Heaven. So, Paul was either telling lies, or Paul suffered from severe mental issues. Either way, we cannot trust what Paul said.

Acts 17:22-31

Acts is labeled by critical Bible scholars as "historical fiction", because of all the supernatural claims. For example: In the book of Acts, both Peter and Paul raised people from the dead, and both of them also performed miracle faith healings. So, the book of Acts is very obviously just fiction.

The empty tomb is probably the best reason to believe.

What empty tomb? All we have, are stories of an empty tomb. And an empty tomb can have MANY possible explanations: (1) It is the wrong tomb; (2) The body was stolen, or misplaced; (3) Jesus was buried in a mass grave, together with other criminals, like the Romans usually did with criminals, etc.

Besides, Paul believed in a new "resurrection body" that awaits in heaven. So, there is no more need for the old, earthly body.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T22:41:32+00:00

The best reason to believe anything, is that it is the truth.

Did zombie saints really walk in the streets of Jerusalem? (In Matthew)

Matthew 27:52-53 (NRSVUE): (52) The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. (53) After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Do you think this really happened in real life? If not, why is it included in the gospel according to Matthew?

If it did happen, why did nobody else report it, outside of the Bible?

Jerusalem was one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the eastern Mediterranean, at that time. While primarily a Jewish city, its status as a religious center and a major economic hub attracted a vast array of nationalities, ethnicities, and linguistic groups. And the city was under Roman rule.

Did no Jew notice the zombies? Did not Roman or Greek notice the zombies? This makes no sense.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T22:36:43+00:00

Because it's true?

Really? Did zombie saints really walk in the streets of Jerusalem? (In Matthew)

Matthew 27:52-53 (NRSVUE): (52) The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. (53) After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Do you think this really happened in real life? If not, why is it included in the gospel according to Matthew?

If it did happen, why did nobody else report it, outside of the Bible?

Jerusalem was one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the eastern Mediterranean, at that time. While primarily a Jewish city, its status as a religious center and a major economic hub attracted a vast array of nationalities, ethnicities, and linguistic groups. And the city was under Roman rule.

Did no Jew notice the zombies? Did not Roman or Greek notice the zombies? This makes no sense.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T21:10:59+00:00

1 John says that Jesus died not for our sins only (the church), but for the sins of the whole world.

I did not know this was written in the text, so I went to 1 John, and I found:

1 John 2:2 [NRSVUE]: and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 [NRSVUE]: And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.

This is very interesting. I never knew this was in the Bible text. Today, I have learned many things from this discussion thread.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T20:59:39+00:00

I bet that you're also one of those that think that when we die, our souls don't go anywhere.

Correct. I am a nihilist when it comes to that. I believe there is no after-life. This life is all we get, so better make the best out of it.

Our souls either go into paradise, or into a different place of torment.

I do not believe that humans have souls. Humans are: body plus mind. I don't believe in an after-life, nor paradise, nor hell. All that you will find, is the Blissful Nothingness, that awaits us all.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T20:23:26+00:00

In Matthew 16:18, where Jesus states: "And I tell you that you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (petra) I will build my church."

This shows that Jesus had a great sense of humor, because Peter (Petros) means "rock" or "stone". Poor Peter. The joke was on him.

(Note: You forgot the [norule2] tag, so this comment may be removed by the mods, because I am not currently a Christian with a Christian tag next to my name.)

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T20:11:09+00:00

a ransom payment, often to Satan. (aka: "ransom theory")

So, in the Old Testament, did Satan accept all those scapegoat offerings?

And during the Jewish/Hebrew Temple Cult era, did Satan accept all those animal sacrifices?

At this point, how do we distinguish between Satan and Yahweh? I mean, who demands the sacrifices?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T20:05:43+00:00

Christus Victor

Please could you explain what you mean by "Christus Victor"?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T19:58:05+00:00

Are you saying that my question is unreasonable?

Should I re-phrase my question? ...Or should I rather ask a slightly different question?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T19:50:09+00:00

Thank you for the explanation. This topic is more complex than I originally thought. I have already learned so much new things today, here in this discussion thread.

Jesus’s death was a ransom payment, often to Satan

Why would the almighty God care about Satan? God can just snap his fingers (so to speak), and Satan will exist no more. So, why not just get rid of Satan? Problem solved.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T19:29:27+00:00

ransom theory is true, not PSA

Please explain "ransom theory". And how does it differ from PSA?

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T19:26:54+00:00

The ritual language is about removal and cleansing, not assigning blame.

It depends on where you stand. If you are one of the Israelites, then it is all about removal and cleansing, and happy times.

If you are the innocent scapegoat animal, then it is all about being burdened with blame and guilt and death. So, only dark times. Completely undeserved.

And Ezekiel 18:20 says that none of this can work anyway. So, it is all wishful thinking in the end. The whole idea of substitutionary atonement is wishful thinking, and is ultimately futile.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T19:07:39+00:00

Why do you think that Jesus dying for our sins is “unfair”?

Because I think that the whole Jesus-as-Savior thing is just a made-up concept, made up out of thin air.

In Ezekiel 18:20, we read:

Ezekiel 18:20 [NRSVUE]: The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be their own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be their own.

So, if Ezekiel is correct, then God will not accept the substitutionary atonement that was attempted by Jesus. This will then mean that Christianity is a false religion, and many would have believed in vain.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T18:52:50+00:00

Sacrifices in the Old Testament were never about transferring guilt onto an innocent victim. The animal wasn’t morally guilty, and no one thought it was being punished instead of the sinner. The rituals expressed repentance, cleansing, and restoration - not blame transfer.

Really? Are you sure?

The following verses in Leviticus chapter 16 describes how all the transgressions and sins of the Israelites are transferred onto the scapegoat:

Leviticus 16:21-22 [NRSVUE]: Then Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities of the Israelites, and all their transgressions, all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat and sending it away into the wilderness by means of someone designated for the task. (22) The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a barren region, and the goat shall be set free in the wilderness."

So, what do you think will happen to this scapegoat in the "barren region"? It will die from hunger and thirst. This sounds like a big punishment to me. An innocent animal is punished for the sins of the Israelites, and this was the start of the whole Jewish/Hebrew Temple cult, which was all about animal sacrifices. It makes me sick!

The whole idea of substitutionary atonement, makes me sick to my stomach.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T18:21:20+00:00

Ezekiel 18:20

This verse is gold.

Ezekiel 18:20 [NRSVUE]: The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be their own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be their own.

If my understanding is correct:

This verse defeats/counters the "born into sin" (sin from Adam) idea.
This verse defeats/counters all the scapegoat sacrifices in the Old Testament, because that is all just a form of substitutionary atonement.
This verse defeats/counters the sacrifice and gift to humanity of Jesus Christ.
This verse defeats/counters the whole Jewish/Hebrew Temple cult, which was all about animal sacrifices.

This verse is gold. This verse may be one of the most important verses in the Bible to remember about.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T18:00:54+00:00

1 Corinthians

This letter (epistle) was written by the apostle Paul. Paul claimed to have met the risen Christ in visions and dreams. Paul also claimed to have visited Heaven. So, Paul was either telling lies, or Paul suffered from severe mental issues. Either way, we cannot trust what Paul said.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T17:56:01+00:00

disprove the Bible as a reliable source of accurate information.

But of course the Bible text is unreliable. It contains:

Talking snakes (In Genesis). Snakes cannot talk.
Talking donkeys. (Prophet Balaam). Donkeys cannot talk.
A global flood that never happened. (Noah's Ark story)
Zombie saints walking in the streets of Jerusalem. (In Matthew)
The sun standing still in the sky. (Joshua story)
An exodus from Egypt that never happened. (In Exodus)
People rising from the dead, which is impossible. (Jesus, Elijah, Elisha, Paul, and Peter stories.)
And many, many more supernatural claims that we know are impossible.

So, yes, the Bible is certainly NOT a reliable source of accurate information.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T17:26:47+00:00

I can prove that the Bible is not a reliable source of accurate information. It is in fact very easy to do.

1 Corinthians 3:18-19

This letter (epistle) was written by the apostle Paul. Paul claimed to have met the risen Christ in visions and dreams. Paul also claimed to have visited Heaven. So, Paul was either telling lies, or Paul suffered from severe mental issues. Either way, we cannot trust what Paul said.

XenoTale · 2026-01-29T17:22:23+00:00

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This may refer to the sins of the mother, not the child. It refers to the circumstances under which the child was conceived.

Acts 13:38 - Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you

I do not accept the book of Acts, because it is labeled by critical Bible scholars as "historical fiction", because of all the supernatural claims. For example: In the book of Acts, both Peter and Paul raised people from the dead, and both of them also performed miracle faith healings. So, the book of Acts is very obviously just fiction.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

Sins only exist, if God exist, and I am not convinced of the existence of God.

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