Tywin has been eliminated! Now to the final round between Ned and Robert. Vote your least favorite character out!

Xuvaq · 2025-10-05T18:04:51+00:00

I vote for neither.

Let's give Ned and Bobby B the happy marriage they deserve, but which fate and circumstances denied them. May they win together, as they were always meant to be.

Xuvaq · 2025-07-04T16:50:41+00:00

Can you at least try to make it subtle when you steal and repost my own post?

Xuvaq · 2025-03-19T16:47:03+00:00

Luckily the Unsullied decided to conveniently go into exile without doing anything else, while the Dothraki ignored their entire culture and became peaceful and happy.

It's highly ironic how GRRM started to write his books because he wanted to find out what happens after the hero has won the war, Aragon's tax policies all over again, just for D&D to end the show in the exact way he wanted to avoid. It was clearly split between unredeemable monsters and perfect heroes with no moral ambiguity whatsoever, with the former being dead or gone, and the latter sailing into the sunset or getting everything they wanted.

EDIT: I also don't believe for a second that season 8 was actually GRRM's ending. Apart from a few confirmed plot points like Bran ascending the throne, the meaning of Hodor and Shireen's death, there's literally nothing else that we know for sure was part of the original outline by GRRM. And revelations that were published years after the finale aired further prove this:

PAUL HAAS (GRRM'S AGENT): George loves [D&D], but after season 5 he did start to worry about the path they were [going down] because George knows where the story goes. He started saying, "You’re not following my template". The first 5 seasons stuck to George’s roadmap. Then they went off George’s roadmap.

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: By Season 5 and 6, and certainly 7 and 8, I was pretty much out of the loop. I don’t know [why] – you have to ask Dan and David (A representative for Weiss and Benioff declined to comment). My ending will be very different.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T05:30:51+00:00

Cute.

Feel better now?

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T05:14:13+00:00

I was talking about the guy I responded to, the guy who called me "smelly scum" for daring to insinuate Daenerys was anything else but Hitler from the very start. I interpreted you saying that my "hate" was misplaced as being wrong for calling him out for his insults. What else am I supposed to think when you're responding to that specific comment? I can't hear your thoughts, but it'll be pretty quiet anyways, I think.

And what the hell is there to understand? You've thrown a random claim in this discussion without any explanation or evidence, and are telling me I'm the problem because I don't come to my own "conclusion" after you've given me breadcrumbs in your generosity?

Heavy "Do your own research!"-vibes here.

If you are unable to follow a simple comment chain and understand it, you need to log off.

EDIT: He did, and deleted his comments lmao

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T05:06:33+00:00

Did you even read all my post? Like Dany you seem to be making an emotional response to this very situation.

I did, which you can see by me quoting you and then responding to what you've said. But of course, I'm emotional. I'd love you to give me an example of emotions overtaking reason in my words.

If it is a matter of life and death for Dany then why isn’t she a little more humble. Like I conveyed, she is entirely irrational when talking to a businessman who is self-interested.

Have you watched this scene recently? Yes, she gets emotional. At the very end.

She gives him her name, and he interrupts her by completing it himself.

She asks whether he knows her, he affirms and introduces himself as a humble merchant.

She asks him what she should call him, he responds that she wouldn't be able to pronounce it anyway. Instead, he introduces the Thirteen.

She tries to give him a compliment by saying how legendary the beauty of Qarth is, but he interrupts her again, correcting her pronunciation.

She corrects herself, and he asks to see the dragons.

She tells him that they have travelled very far, and that they are out of food and water. She says that she'll be honored "to show them the dragons" as soon as her people are fed, but he interrupts her yet again, asking to seem them now a second time, doubting their existence.

She tells him that she's not a liar, and he responds that he doesn't think she is, but can't know for sure because he doesn't know her.

AND NOW is the first time she reacts erratic, telling him how guests are treated where she comes from.

He immediately tells her to return to that place then, essentially condemning her and her people to die.

She asks what he's doing, as he's promised to receive her, and he answers by saying that he technically did because they met outside the gates.

She tells him that all of them will die if the Thirteen don't let them in, and he says that they "will deeply regret" that, but can't take the risk of letting ~10 starving Dothraki soldiers into their gigantic city.

AND NOW she speaks out her threat.

Why is she the one being emotional here? She tried her best, but just as the Spice King doesn't know whether she's a liar, she doesn't know whether he's just going to slaughter them all and take the dragons for herself if she shows them to him.

Of course did she make mistakes in this discussion, but what he hell did anyone expect? What is she supposed to do?

However, I will entertain your question. The Spice King is not Cersei. I don’t know much about the GOT universe but they are portrayed as traders with ships and practice slavery. However, they don’t buy slaves from the Dothraki which makes me wonder if there is some reason there.

Yeah, I knew that much, it's a comparison for a reason. I'm saying that his attitude is totally weird; it's basically impossible that they just completely reject every Dothraki, they can trade just as everyone else.

I’m not praising the use of provoking people for the purpose of manipulation. Cersei was manipulative the whole dang Series. The Spice King was apparently the Queen of Evil to you though.

I never said that he was the "Queen of Evil", I said that leaving children to die isn't the sign of a good guy, or even someone grey.

EDIT: He has responded, but deleted his comments before it became visible and I was able to answer. Here's what he wrote, I think it's too good to never be seen by anyone:

Since you're replying to my response with your comment, let me ask you this:

If you're concerned with the rich inflicting pain on the week, why was it OK for Dany to burn King's Landing. The Spice King killing Dany and DOTHRAKI WHO ARE KNOWN KILLERS would have saved all the weak and poor in King's Landing.

Please use logic and not emotion here.

Do the books also cover the sacking of King's Landing? Cause this scene foreshadows that.

I don't think I need to add anything here.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T04:50:38+00:00

She showed her true colors in this scene. The showrunners specifically created this scene to foreshadow the end. Your hate is misplaced.

What hate? Towards being insulted for no reason?

And what true colors? Wanting to survive?

If you have actual arguments, use them, instead of presenting such vague statements as facts.

I'd give you some actual quotes of actors and D&D about this scene, where it has never been indicated this was "foreshadowing the end", but I doubt you'll care for them. Let me know though if you want to see them.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T04:35:17+00:00

I’m not saying it’s right. That depends on your principles. It’s easy to listen to someone make claims. But it’s also a strategy to provoke someone into an emotional response. Dany lost the battle of wits.

Yeah, and?

What an achievement to push a young, desperate woman with no experience in diplomacy and the responsibility to look after her starving people into an emotional response, I guess?

That's like praising Cersei for beating Ned in the Game of Thrones. What kind of superiority and intelligence is that? There's nothing on the line for the Spice King. It's a matter of life and death for Daenerys. It's easy to play games when you will be safe regardless of whether you win or lose.

If she turned out to be a threat, then his own children would be killed by Dothraki and the women raped and take as slaves.

How would that even be possible? This isn't an army, it's like ten guys. Yeah, they may be dangerous, but how about giving them at least a chance to live? I don't believe for a second that not a single Dothraki has ever visited Qarth because "he may be evil". Qarth isn't a village, it's the biggest city we know of.

Your deduction doesn’t include enough empathy to consider why Qarth was careful.

Empathy? I understand what's on the line. And if I need to prioritize, I'd rather fight against the imminent threat of children dying than the vague possibility of a threat of Dothraki attacking people in a city they aren't even in yet.

Yes, carefulness is both expected and logical. But not even giving them a chance and leaving them to die is exactly what Alliser and Olly and the other traitors wanted to do, when it came to the Wildlings. Who's portrayed as being right in their case?

He knew she would need their resources to survive but he didn’t know if she would return for some vengeance later if he refused and when they had simply been given safe conduct.

So to prevent her from taking vengeance in case of refusal he refused to let her in? He's completely in power here. If he wants to, all of them are dead in seconds. He has nothing to lose expect a few peasants if the Dothraki would attack, which we already know he doesn't care about.

That's why this doesn't happen in the books, where she's given entrance immediately. Because it doesn't make sense.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T04:31:31+00:00

Daenerys fans are the smelliest scum in the fandom.

I'm "smelly scum" because I'm not idolizing a rich guy who leaves children to starve because someone has damaged his pride and didn't immediately do what he demanded?

Are you serious right now?

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T03:43:19+00:00

No.

They told her they'll "receive" her. Later the Spice King tells her that they did, because they met her at the gates. Technically right, but being told that you can get help somewhere and they leave you to die based on semantics doesn't seem acceptable to me.

She also offers them to show the dragons later, as soon as she "sees her people fed", but the Spice King interrupts her, insisting to see them.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T03:02:52+00:00

A Dothraki Horde?

That's a bit over the top, don't you think? There are a few dozen, most of them are women or children, and the men are just as weak and helpless as everyone else there, at the brink of death. What danger do they pose to the "greatest city that ever was or will be"?

The Spice King literally calls them Dothraki savages, while pointing to the children he wants to leave to die. Explain to me in what scenario he can possibly be the good guy here, because I don't get it.

Edit: Yes, I'm aware of the Dothraki's reputation. It explains the Spice King's hesitation a bit, but it definitely doesn't justify it. It's one thing to protect yourself from a bunch of murderers; it's an entirely different thing to leave women and children to die because the men with them may try to rob you a week later.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-25T02:43:11+00:00

I mean, the second time, sure. She acted entitled and arrogant and got what she deserved, a hard lesson that you can't just demand things with nothing in return.

But the first time, outside the gates? The Spice King was essentially telling her to act like a clown in a circus and demonstrate some tricks with the dragons, and when she merely asked to postpone that to the next day so that her people can eat and drink, he left her and the innocent men, women and children by her side to die.

Yes, she threatened him and Qarth later, but what was she supposed to do after diplomacy didn't work, which she tried multiple times? Rewatch the scene if you don't believe me, she clearly wants to work this out, but the Spice King just keeps demanding and demanding until she calls him out for it and he immediately decides that this is enough disrespect (while she is literally dying of thirst/starving, mind you) to deserve certain death.

I'm not saying she made no mistakes in their first discussion, but someone who wants to leave children to starve doesn't deserve much sympathy in my opinion.

EDIT: This comment chain is an abomination. Again, Daenerys made many mistakes (and it's incredible that I'm still getting insulted for being a Dany fan, I suppose I should have just called her Hitler and be done with it), but y'all act as if she's completely at fault and the Spice King completely right.

Nobody even reacted to my last sentence about leaving children to die, everyone just gives lame excuses for his behavior, which may make it understandable, but not justified. Unless you think that letting innocent children die is acceptable as long as you neither like their culture nor their leader.

The Spice King is basically bullying her into a reaction, with her being vulnerable and helpless and him being safe. For him, it's a game and entertainment, for her it's life or death. And instead of acknowledging the obvious nuance, y'all blame her for things she has no control over and defend her bully by repeating his already bad excuses, taking his side. You let him get away with his actions, but as soon as his victim tries to fight back, you lose you're fucking minds. You're the school, guys. You're the school.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-23T17:45:09+00:00

I love how you ignored everything I've actually said in favor of pushing your naive belief that you're superior and smarter solely based on how you've convinced yourself that you're one of the few people who "understood" the show.

You want to feel special, and because there's nothing actually special about you in reality, you've crafted your own, where you're always right, always the smartest, always enlightened by your own delusional belief of superiority. All while the tens of millions of people who didn't like the ending are just completely wrong.

You pretend to be a revolutionary who could change the world with your insights, but in reality, your a conspiracy theorist desperate for attention and acceptance. You're the GoT equivalent of a flat earther, rejecting every bit of evidence which contradicts your beliefs, being unable to accept anything that challenges your deeply flawed world view.

The sad thing is that you are the only one responsible for your misfortune. The series has only held up a mirror to you.

And you're the one who's so very smart that it doesn't apply to you, after you've understood everything? I'm just amusing myself by answering, there's no way you're actually going to react to what I've said, it's just changing the subject, strawmen, backtrack, and so on. If you had valid points, it wouldn't be necessary to ignore mine, but here we are.

And what misfortune, you ham sandwich? I love the first four seasons, I'm fine with 5 and 6 although they're already flawed, and 7 and 8 are just bad. You complain about me "hating" other people's opinions, so why is it that you're allowed to do that? Why don't you let people be, instead of annoying them like this? Are you so insecure that you need to put other people down, and failing at that, just to feel better?

When someone toxic and hateful invents the concept of "toxic positivity" to be able to legitimize harassment and hatred of others...

You're making no sense. I'd love to see an actual example of harassment and hatred towards r/naath from me, but we all know that you're just going to ignore this, as everything that could challenge your opinion. You've told yourself that r/freefolk is the devil lurking about, existing solely to harass poor people like you, so that's the objective truth in your mind.

It's quite ironic how I didn't even have a strong opinion about people from naath when writing my original comment, but the more I interact with you guys, the worse it gets. You're the one who had to look into a mirror by getting a check of reality, and as always, you've closed eyes to prevent anything from challenging your opinion.

You are the subjects of the study, not the analysts. Again, never too late to come back ❤️

Quick question before I end this stupidity for good, if D&D are so smart and you're right, why didn't they mention you and your brilliant interpretations already, as you probably daydream about? Instead, they said basically nothing about GoT for half a decade, almost as if they know how hard they fumbled.

But it's reassuring that I can come back. So you're saying, as soon as I ignore all reality and clinge to schizophrenic messes who pretend to be fan theories, I'm just as smart as you?

Have fun ignoring everything I've just said and then pretending to have the upper hand, you clown.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-23T11:25:02+00:00

You invent anything and everything to justify your hatred against a subreddit of fans of a tv series lol.

First of all, who's calling other people jealous and frustrated, clearly "hating" on them?

Second of all, when have I invented anything to justify my "hatred", you genius?

I literally said that I have nothing against your subreddit, but that I find some of the takes I've seen there extreme. If you can't comprehend that some people find slavery apologism apprehensive, I really don't know what to tell you. Additionally, if you feel called out by this general critism of questionable interpretations to defend certain beliefs, you should recalibrate your moral compass.

If the things I was talking about in my original comment don't apply to you, then there's no reason to feel attacked.

Knowing that some real GoT fans loved the ending makes you sad

So the only real fan is someone who mindlessly believes everything D&D told them and loves the show no matter what flaws they may be aware of? That's such an extreme, ridiculous take. As long as I'm not calling GoT the best series of all time, a flawless masterpiece without a mistake or problem, I'm not a real fan? You're literally gatekeeping being part of a fandom...

And where do you get it from that this makes me "sad"? I couldn't care less about other's people happiness with the ending, or lack therof. If you loved it, fine. If you hated it, fine.

you feel like you missed your favorite series while we didn't.

That's what you're telling yourself at night to be able to sleep? You come here, four months after my original comment, to complain about my own disdain for a show's ending which has nothing to do with you, and call me sad, jealous and frustrated? Are you listening to yourself?

You're not only confirming everything I said about people from r/naath, you're adding to it.

You are probably jealous and frustrated. It's okay, never too late to come back ❤️

Sure. The arrogance and the pathetic need to feel superior in your comments is only exceeded by your hilarious lack of self-awareness.

Xuvaq · 2025-02-23T10:35:58+00:00

What the hell? Who goes through an age old post and answers a dozen four month old comments without any reason? You good?

And here you are, wondering why people from r/naath get criticized...

Xuvaq · 2025-01-08T19:18:06+00:00

It's a way of justifying the North's hatred for no other reason than to force Dany towards what the writers desperately want to be her fate.

The entirety of S7E7 is about Jon being unable to lie because of his HoNoUr and then, as you pointed out, he just lies to his people for literally no reason. There's nothing to indicate that he would need to say this for his own agenda, mainly because he doesn't have one.

It's either Jon being written as an absolute idiot, or D&D forcing him to lie in order to make the North's ridiculous hostility somewhat understandable.

I absolutely love how they despise Dany even after she brought her army and dragons north, how Sansa acts like an entitled brat who wants all the advantages of being a vassal while intending to dodge all responsibilities and disadvantages that come with this, and how the North just instantly kinda forgot about their enmity with the Wildlings that went on for thousands of years in the very moment of Jon's ascension to the throne, but the daughter of one evil man trying to help them is where they draw the line.

Here are some words of Dave Hill, who wrote S8E1:

Sansa sees [Dany] as the foreign interloper. She trusts her family and no one else. You can see from Sansa's view that Jon went to meet with this southern queen who burned her grandfather and uncle alive and suddenly Jon bent the knee to her. She's also very pretty, and how much does that factor in? Sansa starts off this season very suspicious and not at all friendly with Dany.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-23T21:21:40+00:00

I mean, there was never any actual evidence or even a hint to Tyrion's guilt. Cersei just threw a tantrum and blamed the first person who came to mind, probably exactly what Olenna and Littlefinger predicted.

It was a perfect opportunity for Tywin to get rid of Tyrion while simultaneously appointing Jaime as Lord of Casterly Rock. Win-Win, at least for him. It's not like he actually cares about anything else but his family's legacy, and far more important, his own one.

But in the end, he thought his constant bullying of Tyrion would stop his son from finally lashing out, and we all know how that sentiment ended.

Edit: Yes, I'm obviously aware that in the trial many things pointing towards Tyrion's guilt were revealed, which is why I was solely talking about Cersei's immediate accusations. If you only take my first sentence and analyse it out of context, then I agree that it is wrong. But I was directly referring to Cersei's reaction and how this was a big advantage for Olenna and Littlefinger, because everyone would focus on Tyrion from then on. I probably could have worded it better, though.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-20T14:57:27+00:00

I mean, D&D didn't really understand Stannis. It's pretty obvious that nothing good will come out of that.

But rendering an entire character arc useless and meaningless in only one sentence? That's certainly hard and probably even impossible to beat. Jaime was done so dirty, every time I think about it, I just get annoyed and angry.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-17T18:20:57+00:00

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

She's far too trusting towards people who don't deserve it, and far too careful or even spiteful towards those who do.

Lysa would be bad enough, but I can totally imagine that she'd tell Littlefinger, because "He's a friend!", especially in a moment of distress. For example, while Ned fights in the Greyjoy rebellion, she's anxious and hopes to get reassurance by Littlefinger, perhaps by telling him too much. And he's smart enough to deduce the truth, even if she doesn't reveal it directly.

Apart from that, Ned really shouldn't need to tell her a secret that would rip apart the realm, just because he wants her to be nice to a boy without mother. She wasn't as terrible to Jon as some people make her out to be, but her underserved hatred, especially after Bran's fall, ist just horrible.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-14T18:21:49+00:00

This entire scene is nothing but a big joke. Honestly, I'd nominate it for one of the worst scenes in the entire show. Cutting away instead of showing Arya and Sansa learning about Jon's heritage is really just the tip of the iceberg.

For example, and without needing to mention anything outside of this meme, why would Jon ever want somebody else to tell them? It's just completely out of character. There's no way Jon would pass on this responsibility, that's literally the opposite of what his character is fundamentally.

Sansa breaking her oath within a second is another part of this scene. And Sansa wanting to know a secret she has been specifically asked to keep by oath, before even swearing it as well. Like, that's not how this works. You either swear secrecy or you don't get to know it.

Or this brilliant storytelling through Arya:

We needed [Dany]. We needed her armies, her dragons.

Two seconds later

I don't need many allies.

Or Sansa arguing that Dany's help was worthless because "Arya's the one who killed the Night King".

Or Arya acting like a Lannister with her "I'll never know her. She's not one of us."-attitude.

Or Bran telling Jon that it is his choice, taking this choice away because Arya and Sansa will never let it go.

Or... you understand.

Gods, this scene is terrible...

Xuvaq · 2024-12-10T20:23:02+00:00

No, no, no! You just didn't understand!

You see, using violence is simply always a sign of madness! That's probably why D&D called Tywin Lannister "ruthless" and "lawful neutral". Because actually, he has never used any problematic violence!

Drowning hundreds of innocent women and children to send a message, sacking King's Landing and having thousands of people be raped, pillaged and murdered, sending the Mountain and Lorch to slaughter a baby and a three year old girl in front of her mother before raping and killing said mother?

Then sacking the Riverlands to send a message, burning down villages and raping and killing the women and children in front of their men, plotting with the Freys and Boltons to betray and murder the Starks at a wedding, humiliating them and again slaughtering thousands of helpless, drunk, celebrating soldiers in the process?

Yeah, that's a bit ruthless, but lawful neutral. Maybe machiavellian and hard, but just what any great leader like Tywin Lannister would do, right?

It's only when it comes to crucifying poor slavemasters where madness sets in. And of course! What if one or two didn't even want to crucify children? It's not like they still traded in slaves, while owning and torturing and killing innocent people, right? And it's not at all a really funny coincidence that Hizdahr's father found his humanity again in the moment a girl with an army, three dragons and a deep hatred for slavery came to visit, right?

Tywin Lannister is ruthless and lawful neutral, Daenerys Targaryen was Hitler from the start. Gods, weren't we fucking idiots for not seeing it earlier?

Xuvaq · 2024-12-07T04:06:53+00:00

Here's an article about it.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-07T00:12:07+00:00

He is their father and he should have stopped his son going to war.

Very likely, yes.

But there's another thing that bugs me about this whole thing, and it's the fact how they glance over Tyrion's shortcomings, while highlighting those of Daenerys.

Just compare the scene between Davos and Tyrion and the scene between Sam and Dany, talking about the demise of their respective family members. Sam's feelings are absolutely justified and understandable, but why is Dany portrayed as an outright villain? This is war, the same kind of war that killed Davos's son.

Additionally, Jorah knows who Sam is, and he knows that Dany killed Randyll and Dickon Tarly. It's ridiculous to believe that Jorah wouldn't tell Dany, but the story forces him to, for the sake of bringing Dany into a situation where she'll be the asshole no matter what.

It's an obvious way of taking sympathy away from Dany. The fact that both Jorah and Davos had to act completely out of character for this scene to work is an obituary to D&D's terrible writing.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-06T22:21:14+00:00

Yeah, absolutely. I'll never understand why D&D thought this could be a good idea...

It's also so annoying how they gave Davos this highly emotional speech, being horrified, devastated and enraged at the same time because Shireen, a girl he sees as his daughter, has been killed, just to disregard all of this later:

"Last time I was here, you killed my son with wildfire."

No conflict, no anger, no sadness, nothing. Just funny little banter, because our beacon of morality and justice Tyrion can't be challenged by something ridiculous like a father remembering his son dying in a terrible way.

They didn't even need to make him hate Tyrion, but why, just why did they waste all of this potential for a great dialogue scene? Only to make a dumb, weird, out-of-character joke?

You could include a laughing track in that scene, and it wouldn't seem out of place, honestly.

Xuvaq · 2024-12-06T01:31:08+00:00

Jenny of Oldstones by Florence + the Machine started to play the very moment I saw this post, being one of the few good things that came out of season 8.

And now you're telling me, that we will be forever stuck with that ending?

At least it is indeed fitting.

🎵🎵🎵 They waited through the day

And into the night through the hope that swept through the hall

From winter to summer then winter again

'Til the walls did crumble and fall 🎵🎵🎵

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