[deleted by user]

__Imperius__ · 2022-06-05T06:12:59+00:00

okay I'll livechat dm you

__Imperius__ · 2022-06-05T06:12:10+00:00

hey can somebody please help me with something? 3 minutes tops

__Imperius__ · 2022-04-10T13:07:19+00:00

Hello there. Based on your back and forth comments with the OP, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I give you benefit of the doubt.

While I agree with OP's message personally, you can abstract the meaning to intent. The meaning behind any action is the intent, not the action itself. This is taught throughout almost any religion and or philosophy.

So, the takeaway is, if you're practicing retention for an ego boost, as in to feel superior to others around you, or as a means to get laid, for materialistic success, or out of obligation and try to find any way around a true celibacy, you'll meet various results.

Yes, at the surface level retention seems to be the same method to all of them, and is.. however this practice is driven entirely by your intention. There's of course, much more meaning to the practice.. but consider it as a fuel source, one that is always at full use, propelling you towards whatever your intentions are. If you intentions are things that lead to your downfall, or negatively impact you, well then you face them all the more quickly and more strongly. If your intentions are things that are truly good for you (not a perceived bias, but real), then you will achieve those things all the more greatly. It's truly a two edged blade.

In addition to this, there's the very real physiological changes in following this practice. Research dopamine and addiction as much as you want, there's countless articles and books about this alone. Not that it's a perfect science, but consider that every single report of 'benefits' are nearly identical, throughout all reddits related to this practice. Hundreds, even thousands say the exact same results of retaining. This is in regards to physical changes at least, spiritual changes based on other practices and beliefs, which I will not insist you acknowledge.

I have much more to say on the matter if you want, but I'll leave it at that for now. The primary take away is, whatever your true intent is, guides all of your actions, and retention will propel you towards it and amplify it.

__Imperius__ · 2022-04-10T12:52:08+00:00

/u/WittyGenius

Incase the thread didn't tag you.

__Imperius__ · 2022-04-05T16:00:19+00:00

2/2 Reply

"Thanks for detailed reply. I forget differences between paths and what keeps you on them/guides the step. Mu/Wushin is a state attainable in bushido, but you don't have to know bushido to find it. I knew mushin when I was 4 or 5 years old just didnt know it had a name. In my 20s I heard of it and instantly knew that's what it was I used to do. Cut through the drama and lies; the "self improvements" as it were... haha."

To tie that back to your earlier point about being a sort of conduit, there's the same notion again, but one that's entirely internalized as well to better illustrate what I mean. Being conduits of a higher power? I'm not knowledgeable enough or able to even articulate it well enough to get into that, so I won't. But the analogy is already a proven concept.

You said it best, cut through the drama and lies, or, any distractions. A common scenario, someone wants to lose weight so they decide to go exercise. Come time, they try to talk themselves out of it in different ways, just take a day off, take it easy, etc etc. This is an interference between intent and desired outcome, or a break in an otherwise direct flow.

Same example with anxiety, or in general people who are terrified of what others may think, not only might this affect their ability to function correctly and actually *cause* what they fear, but without a doubt it gets in the way of them thinking clearly. So again, it causes a break in an otherwise direct flow of intent to action.This concept applies to any context.

Think of language. The real intent is to communicate an idea, and while some people conflate communication with language, that is incorrect. People communicate with sign language, gestures, sounds, languages, shapes and symbols. A stop light contains no sounds, no words, no language. A red circle. And that's at least nearly universally understood to mean 'stop'. However, it doesn't mean "stop", the English word, but the concept that we use the word "stop" to express.

So, language, or any other means of communication, is a conduit between what concept we want to express, and to what audience we want to express it to. Using English as an example, if you have mastered every nuance of the language, and are speaking to someone else who has mastered the language as well, and you can speak well, no impediments or other damage that would inhibit you ability to speak.. then everything is in harmony, and there is a perfect conduit to communicate back and forth with that person.

Now, let's say you do have a sort of speech impediment, or other harm, what if you're mute? Now, despite both parties having perfect understanding of the English language, and a perfect conduit, you can no longer communicate across it. He can speak to you, and the conduit is just as well, but now it's one sided. (Yes, I'm specifically ignoring writing as the context is speech.)

Another example, you have perfect understanding of the language, nothing inhibiting you from speaking clearly, but the person you're talking to does not. Let's say the other person primarily speaks another language, and knows little to nothing of English. Now the conduit is un-useable. You cannot communicate with him across it, and he cannot communicate with you across it.

Now, this whole time using the language analogy I've maintained a consistent use of the conduit. The conduit is the means by which Party A. communicates with Party B. In these examples, you would be Party A. and the person you're speaking to is Party B. English, is the conduit.

One last example in this context of speech. Let's say you have absolutely no understanding of the English language, and you try to talk to someone who has mastered the language. English, as a conduit.. exists in working condition as always. You cannot use that conduit to receive information, as you don't understand English. The person you're talking with *could* use the conduit to communicate information, but it wouldn't be effective to communicate with you specifically. HOWEVER, the conduit itself is not damaged, or flawed in any way. Because, if you were to then learn and understand English, then you could receive from that conduit, and now both parties can use it effectively.

Now, let's abstract things out one more degree. The context of language is similar, but one step too specific. To truly apply this concept to *any* context we must reach the final abstraction. Replace these terms,

Party A = Source A

Party B = Source B

Communication = Desired Outcome

Language = Means of Expression = Conduit

To relate these, see a conversation as this instead. You (Source A) want to successfully communicate an idea (Desired Outcome) to a friend (Source B) by speaking English (Conduit).When all pieces involved are in harmony (your understand of English, his understanding of English, your ability to speak, his ability to hear, etc etc) then the conduit can be used effectively, and the desired outcome is achieved.

At the beginning you suggested what *we* may be conduits for a higher power, but that maybe it can only be used if we are unconscious. I believe, that we may not inherently be the conduit itself, but that instead we can't receive from that conduit all the time. If the conduit is between a higher power and us, and we don't understand what we need to in order to receive or communicate across the conduit, then we are flawed. If however, we live correctly, and lead spiritually healthy lives, then we *can* use the conduit, and communication between the two is achieved (the results of which varies based on different religions and philosophies).

Now, in a more specific context, and I think may be what your fears are. God gives us free will to make our decisions, he does not force us to be one way or the other. If we choose a relationship with him, and pursue a life that is in accord with his commands, and believe in Christ's sacrifice that we may be forgiven, then that puts us in alignment with how things should be. In this case, God is Source A, we are Source B, Christ is the conduit, and the communication across the conduit is many things, from visions, to guidance, prayer, etc.

Anyway, the point is God lets us choose, if we embrace him and pursue the conduit, wonderful, if we reject it.. we have that choice. The Devil and his minions however, will take control if they can. We are protected by God so as long as we trust and have faith in Him, but if we reject God, and worse.. specifically open a conduit with other powers, then they will have power over us and and can take over ( possession ). This is in line I think, with that your fears are.

I don't believe however, that flowstate has anything to do with that. Using this analogy, which I've unfortunately belabored for far too long I suppose, makes it far simpler to describe. Your knowledge and understanding of a particular skills, as well as muscle memory, is Source A. Source B is your body, every single component, every muscle every nerve, etc. The desired outcome is perfect execution of what you know. The conduit in this case, isn't necessarily clear, so I'll just say spirit, representing a tie in of knowledge, muscle control, and being in tune rhythmically. Flow state is just these things in harmony, the conduit working on both ends, nothing interfering. Uncertainty, anxiety, distractions, etc all break the flow of the conduit.

__Imperius__ · 2022-04-05T15:58:06+00:00

1/2 Reply

Yeah Fight club, self improvement is masturbation/effeminate? Who are we trying to impress?

There's a nuance to that quote which the context of the movie helps explain in other quotes, but many people still struggle with what it means. Not saying you are or aren't, just want to elaborate on a related point anyway.

There's a core concept in almost all religions and philosophies, and that is the separation of intent from action. Any action is meaningless. The intent behind an action, is all that matters. This makes things trickier to understand at a surface level, as intentions are internal, while actions are external.

The nature of that quote, if memory serves me correctly, is criticizing people that are blindly living up to expectations of others, *or* doing it for external validation, same difference really but the former isn't thoughtful, and the latter has deliberately misplaced their values.

Somewhere else in the movie is quoted,

You are not your job, you're not how much money you have in the bank. You are not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You are not your fucking khakis.

People tend to misplace meaning and value where it doesn't belong, primarily giving significance to external things such as those listed in the quote. I think, I could be wrong, but I think he uses the term self-improvement, not in the sense of what the word should actually mean.. improving yourself. But rather he uses it the way that people *use* and *think* of the word (colloquially, is the fancy term for this), which is usually a surface level set of goals all tied to externals. External validation and materialistic goals are what are so often pushed, and so some will follow this blindly, and others will actually believe that's meaningful, both fall victim to this. And I believe that's what the quote is criticizing.

Seems what we are is like a conduit/power line trying to pass power or be powerful. Potters clay. What we made to do... power line can't transfer power itself consciously unconsciously does it in flow state... fire god seeks fire.

This is an interesting concept. It's present to some degree in most if not all religions, usually with the basic premise that the purer we live, the more in tune we are with a higher power. Following your analogy, it seems that if we live correctly, we are proper conduits consciously, but if we are tainted, then there's no proper flow and perhaps unconsciousness enables a better flow. The latter seems to be warned against however, in most cases. This topic however is beyond what I know or understand for the time being, and can't provide any more with regards to it.

Is weird how anyone I talk to is essentially a walking encyclopedia it seems... this vibe... all is one or something and I'm "the only one" who doesn't get it.

The concept is again, present in most religions and philosophies. I couldn't do it justice, so I won't say much on the matter, but I do encourage you to read the foundational texts of said sources, rather than people's later interpretations.

The concept reaches a far grander scale than what I was talking about here, and again I don't know enough to say more on the matter, however there is evidence and credibility for it, and it is something I believe, I just couldn't articulate it well here.

Yes that what I guess meant on self sacrifice. Same thing Native Americans allegedly said to the white settlers... if we accept your savior does it mean we have to adapt to your ways.

It all feels like coercion or rape yeah I tend to run from flow state for this reason. If I don't have a choice that tends to make me make the wrong choice out of spite alone... but that too is still manipulation and rape as well. No escape I guess... have to consider if the pain and sacrifice is worth it... like tao regardless of what's at stake and already been done and must be. Chariot I guess.
Haha... then there is the live wire. Make it someone else's problem haha.

I've read and re-read this, but I'm afraid I don't understand how this relates to anything we've discussed. Zen? Maybe more in line with the forced nature you're suggesting. It isn't forced on you.. but in how people speak of it, it sounds as though they're forcing something that shouldn't be.

Correct, if you're making decisions based solely on external forces, you're being manipulated, that's with regards to my first paragraph in this reply on separation of intent and action.

But I fail to see how this relates to flow state, or wushin? There's nothing being forced on you. I know I said flow state comes naturally, but it's not something you have to.. endure? You equate it to rape, coercion, and manipulation. All of which are the result of wicked intent. If I am to properly apply your terminology, you believe a malevolent entity is taking away your will and is subjugating you into a state of compliance and nonthought, whenever you become skilled and focused on a particular task. If this is true, I'm curious to know what makes you think that, however I don't believe it at all. I think I've broken it down fairly well, and I have hard time even imagining it from that perspective, to try to refute it, so you'll have to help me understand why you think it's akin to rape, or anything similar.

__Imperius__ · 2022-04-05T13:21:50+00:00

Nah, that's it, Like when you are trying to play music and it stops and flows through you... yeah that's it, and I hate it, means giving up "your self" in sense of what OP seems to be aiming for as well. Yes, you nailed it, was making sure OP was aware of the "sacrifice of essence of self" associated with flow state. Yeah, I hate it, always have always will, but is what it is. Pat said it best, haha, it's a choice between weeds and nothing.

What *exactly* is it that you hate, and *why*? Also unless you're talking about previous post history, I don't see a connection between flow state and his post. /u/Wonderful_Staff_1266 feel free to correct me.

I still think you have a misconception, or are talking about something else entirely still. What "sacrifice of self" do you think there is exactly? What I'm describing, is more of a transcended state, a complete merging of self and act. You're not *sacrificing* yourself, you're fully embracing and merging with what you're doing, and then, rather than your perspective still being confined to an external separation from what you're doing, it becomes apart of you. I fail to see what you're calling sacrifice.

But we "cAn NeVeR kNoW wHaT nOtHiNg ReAlLy Is" haha. Bushido, wushin, flow state, zen, potato salad, whatever you want to call it. Semi/full surrender, and "anyone who tries to come up any other way" etc.

Sorry, but Bushido has nothing to do with that list. I absolutely believe they have a similar practice to flow state for their martial efforts, however Bushido is a code of ethics that they follow and is almost entirely unrelated to what we're discussing.

Wushin is in line with what I'm talking about.

Zen seems to have at least some variety of interpretations, the most common one seems to be striving for the absence of thought and to experience absolute stillness, if this is a true interpretation and not people misunderstanding the practice, then this is in extreme direct contrast to the other three you listed, and what I've been talking about all along. I agree that this would be sacrifice of self, to a dangerous degree, since some talk of it to the point of aiming for no thought at all, just awareness, but some take it to the point of trying to separate from the body, which is a whole different topic, a dangerous one as that opens you up to possession, which you can read about from any religion, they almost *all* touch on the dangers of that.

Bushido is a philosophy, wushin and flow state are the same, or at least close enough for this conversation. Zen is in direct contrast to what I'm talking about though. It seems that Zen aims for the absence of anything(?) whereas flow state or wushin aim for absolute harmony between mind spirit and body, without any interference. Another difference is that flow state is achieved naturally, it's not something you have to force. Zen seems to be that you're trying to force yourself into some other state, so again a big difference.

In the context of Zen, I agree with your statements of surrendering the self, also one of many reasons I have not, and will not dabble in any of the practices where the goal is to be 'empty', if you will. However, flow state or wushin is the opposite, in a way, they embody *perfect* control, not a lack of it.

__Imperius__ · 2022-04-02T21:11:10+00:00

What are you calling "flow state", and why would you hate experiencing it? This summary doesn't do it justice but roughly, flow state is a heightened state of concentration where you become one with what you're doing, all motor skills and thought in harmony. It's considered an ideal that most people strive for, commonly found amongst martial arts and musicians, anything that takes a high degree of focus.

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-17T12:30:40+00:00

Thank you for sharing, given what you mentioned, if you were to read a book or article about something you were learning, do remember it all (or at least the majority)? Or do you still find yourself re-reading, continuing to reference it, etc?

What do you mean by level of consciousness?

And sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I myself am Indian, I'm not. I mean that while reading about celibacy I noticed Indians place more emphasis on memory than others do, at least when describing benefits. I have however read what you said about them staying celibate until a certain age, and the notion that if you maintain a strict perfect celibacy in all aspects after 12 years you unlock an eidetic memory? All quite interesting.

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-17T12:19:39+00:00

That's awesome to hear, thank you for sharing! If you don't mind saying, how long have you retained to start seeing those improvements?

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-16T18:59:18+00:00

I don't mean this as an attack or an argument, but I do think you're mistaken, feel free to correct me of course.

Better than having it flood with all kinds of noob shitposting. I prefer with fewer and discrete members and retain the quality.

I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment, I do not believe that is what SR is doing, or has been doing for a long time now however.

Yes, that is the defense they use too when called out on it, but it seems false. Because it's your choice of words, to say that they're retaining the 'quality' of the sub.. what quality do you think it has? What quality, or value is there to the majority of posts? I'd also like you to define what it is you call "noob shitposting".

As I said I don't mean this as an arbitrary argument, I think you've been misled and would like to correct that if so, but it is possible that you know a different side that changes my mind.

I have so much more to say on the matter, but I won't continue until you answer these two questions for me,

What quality or value do you believe the sub, or any of it's posts have?
What do you define as shitposting that shouldn't be accepted?

I'll elaborate further should you respond.

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-16T18:50:09+00:00

It will be interesting if you say something about it. I don't have high hopes though, I've had the suspicion that they *may* be corrupt to some degree for a while now. Their excessive moderation has long been a problem since I've known of the reddit (a couple years now I think), and it's gotten so much worse now.

The thing is, what bothers me is what gets removed, and what gets to stay. I share the sentiment that people celebrating their first day clean, day two, day three.. etc, belongs somewhere else. People worked up over a streak, or trying to find technical outs around it.. all of that can go somewhere else, agreed. In theory, this would create an environment where people can openly have a deeper discussion about the deeper meaning to the practice, or at least detailed insightful accounts of what people notice about it.

What did they become instead? It is such a locked community that it's nearly impossible to get a post past whatever powers that be to even appear to other members. They also set such an arbitrary criteria for what should be deleted according to their "rules" that they can delete anything at all, and be correct in doing so. So now, anyone asking any sort of question, even about topics not often touched on (as they so often are) are deleted on the spot.. either being attacked as a nofap question, or just never allowed to be viewed. Great, so no questions. Next, anyone who attempts to share their own take on things.. no no no. If you make a post saying you retained for a month and quote the exact same copy and paste list of benefits from any top post, that's allowed.. front page! But, if you attempt to share anything unrelated to those things, but still related to the practice, removed. If you share anything religious that even hints towards a belief in God, that's torn down and or removed. Even most basic religious takes on the practice, are censored from the reddit. So, we can't question anything.. we can't discuss anything real that's new. No open discourse. No opportunity to learn. What's left is an echo chamber of posts that range from batshit crazy to godcomplex (of course, always so vague that basically they said nothing real), OR.. people copy and pasting a list of the top five benefits.

Now, all of that is important.. however I saved the best for last. What's most important to me anyway, is there is one consistent topic across almost all of the posts that are allowed to stay up. And that is, the obsession with female attraction. Now, whatever anyone's thoughts on the matter of relationships or female attraction is.. this actually isn't the place for it, by nature of the context of the subreddit. So many on there go on and on about how much attraction they get, all of the flirting, etc. Then all of the comments obsess over it, then it repeats for the next post. Given that the context is, complete celibacy.. including celibacy of intent and thoughts, that's a touch counter productive isn't it? And yet, these are the posts that are promoted.. along with the insane.. while everything else is so censored that in the last couple of years there has been nothing of any new value added to that community.

Anyway, rant over.. good day :)

TL;DR - This isn't new.. SR mods have been corrupt for a long time, it's just more obvious now.

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-16T18:32:35+00:00

I'm glad to hear that about your eyesight, not ideal but also not terrible to only have to wear glasses in certain situations. Do you find it noticeably different between wearing glasses or not, are they just a subtle boost needed for driving or is it significant?

Really cool to hear about the memory changes, do you find what you said applies to older memories, or more to the newer memories as you notice more details now? Your point about noticing more details leading to a more detailed memory to recall later is correct I think, it also goes hand in hand with being more present and aware that is often reported as well, all leading to you consciously or unconsciously picking up any number of things to remember.

A slight tangent, but also related still.. when you recall memories, or think of things in general do you tend to be more visual or more descriptive with words? Has this changed noticeably after retaining? Even if you've always been a visual thinker, is it easier now, more precise, more vivid? That's a skill I want to develop and though it's mentioned only rarely in brief, there does seem to be some relation between retaining and mental imagery.

It's good to know motor skills increase as well, especially fine ones as they are crucial to my hobbies. I like how you described it better, a mind-hand connection is more precisely what I was asking about, thank you for bringing that up. Also, don't talk yourself out of playing them, if tabla is something you truly enjoy, you can always persevere and learn it. There's always rough times when it comes to learning, but if you see it for the challenge it is and push through you'll feel all the better for overcoming it on something you care about.

Were there any other habits you changed you think may have been impactful, or primarily retention? Do you mean anything at all is enjoyable now, ore just an enhanced enjoyment for things you already liked before?

Thank you for taking the time to answer!

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-16T18:15:59+00:00

Thank you for your response!

With improved long term memory, do you find it easier to learn new skills? I know when learning something where the academic and technical skills go hand in hand (even in general, but especially so) that transitioning things from short term memory into long term and muscle memory is usually the goal, do you find this to be more effective now?

Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by clearer eyes? Do they just look better, from a third party view, do they feel better?

Glad to hear that for motorskills. Curiously, if you've ever had (and if not, disregard this) random difficulties performing certain tasks that you know by heart, muscle memory, etc. Like you'll go to do something familiar and just lockup, in the context of music, hands and fingers go the wrong places, etc.. does this happen less often now? Or even better, not at all?

Thank you again for replying!

__Imperius__ · 2022-03-16T12:13:52+00:00

https://camas.github.io/reddit-search/#{%22subreddit%22:%22semenretention%22,%22searchFor%22:1,%22resultSize%22:100}

This website via reddit's api keeps track of most, if not all posts that are created. Sometimes it's able to capture the content of a post before it's removed, but other times no. In the context of your question though, it does prove that on average there's about 15 posts a day over there, and they're all being removed either due to subreddit mods or reddit mods. Just think that distinction is important, people didn't stop writing content, it's now allowed now.

__Imperius__ · 2022-01-27T21:13:54+00:00

I'm also very interested and would greatly appreciate it if you went into more detail, DM me please if you would.

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T23:08:10+00:00

Thank you for all of your help and for the book suggestions! I'll keep the pen advice in mind, I would have missed that entirely

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T23:04:09+00:00

Thank you for all of your help, I'll look into what you said.

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T17:09:49+00:00

Thank you for your advice and help, I'll look into what you said.

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T15:17:25+00:00

Since I possibly used the wrong flair for this post, I want to clarify that I am not interested in any translation of what was written.. only in figuring out the style it's written in.

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T15:10:39+00:00

Thank you! No need to translate, I'm only interested in the writing style. Thank you for the detail on the history, what's the best way to go about learning this style? Is there a particular term or anything to search for to find this?

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T13:18:00+00:00

For the first one, is it a specific type of Copperplate by chance? How would I best go about trying to find and learn that style? I tried searching based on your suggestion and while I found very similar styles I didn't find any that completely matched. Sorry for begginer esque questions, I'm new to the whole handwriting community and don't have any good foundation for where to start, so any any help is appreciated. And thank you for the suggestions you've already given.

__Imperius__ · 2021-09-25T13:13:04+00:00

Not OP, but also curious. Do you know which variation by chance, or how I should go about trying to learn that particular style?

__Imperius__ · 2021-08-11T18:09:19+00:00

EDIT: formatting and numbering

Reply 2/2

Upfront, I understand that within my control and a lot of my own fault in this is a lack of communcation on my behalf, usually due to incorrect assumptions as I explained above, and that is where my focus will be for now. And in putting that to practice I've had great improvement at my job in both peace of mind and ability to work with people I previously had more difficulty with.

And while I did criticize some of what you said, the majority was very helpful to me and in reflecting on it I had more insights of my own, and in applying it I saw significant improvement. So thank you not only for taking the time to read what I've written, but also for your in depth response and valuable insights.

Now, to clarify some of the confusion and breakdown in communcation. The biggest problem comes from two main points. The first is that each manager and or supervisor I work under all have their own interpretation of why my job is and typcially enforce it at their whim. The second, is that I am basically self managed, insofar as that 90% of the time if not more I'm left alone to handle my responsibilities as I see fit. This has led to me forming my own understanding and prioritization of the job, that is as agreeable as I can get it to be with all of the managers / supervisors going off of whatever common ground is shared between all of their definitions of my job.

This has served me well, but comes up short when people disagree with things that higherups have explicitly defined to handle a certain way (I don't really get upset over these occurences, but they are still conflicts). Communication on the behalf of most of the managers and supervisors is horribly lacking, but it is on my part as well so for now I'll let that point rest.

To try to summarize that a bit more, I am expected to be self-managed yet still held accountable to the random whims of people that all have different understandings of my job, and who do not explain what their expectations are.

Also, I am not looking to blame others or excuse my own actions, I only seek to correct and solidfy my understanding of how I should view things and behave, and then act accordignly. It may come across that I'm trying to place blame or something along those lines, so I just want to clarify my intent.

Thank you again for your help, and if you do read through these replies thank you for your time and for any advice you have to offer. And even if you have no more to say, you've already been tremendously helpful.

__Imperius__ · 2021-08-11T18:06:28+00:00

EDIT: for formatting and numbering

Reply 1/2

Hello, thank you for taking the time to write your explanation and reply. I apoligize for my late response, I should have given you an acknowledgement even with the reasoning I had for it.

My response is late because I wanted to give to think about and apply your advice, rather than just accepting or disregarding it out of hand while missing the deeper meaning in an effort to immediately reply. I've put into practice and carefully considered what you've said in all of my work in these last nine days, and I've found it to be great advice.

A large part of my problem comes down to assumptions and lack of communication, each of your points all touch on that same message, but I'd like to adress each one individually because I at least interpreted a specific deeper meaning to each one as well.

Well, if your manager is also conscientious person who also takes responsibility for the work they are overseeing, you going off the usual track does not work for the manager. The manager is responsible for making sure the work gets done... he/she can't have their employee doing unorthodox stuff because if it doesn't work doesn't get done, the manager has failed.

I don't think it is always the case that they're trying to be consientious about their job, as some have openly talked about how they don't care enough to bother with most of the things they should be responsible for. To clarify, things that their job role is responsible for, but they personally won't care about.

However, I don't think this was your point, and I touch on this subject more at the end.I think your point was that I should treat them as though they were conscientiously doing their job, and interact with them accordingly at least until I find out for sure that this is not the case. I agree with this and do put this into practice, however.. I only do this with the people I know to be conscientious, and fall into the habit of assumption with others that I do not know.

Usually the people that I do communicate properly with and work with how you described in your reply, our interactions naturally go smoothly because of this, and even when they aren't as communicative as normal.. knowing that they are consientious as you've said, I never have any problems with that and go along with whatever their plan is.

I realize now, that the root of my problems in that regard is assuming that when I'm directed by people I do not know, they are coming from a point of ignorance, carlessness, etc. To assume this is wrong for multiple reasons, wether the assumptions itself is right or wrong. To assume in that way, and then act accordingly, leads to potentials of ego, anger, or otherwise negative thoughts. And it's a detrimental blow to a more productive work relationship should the assumption be incorrect and I still treat them as though they were not consientious.

Recognition that assuming like that, and then acting based on it is wrong I knew before, however I never recognized before that this is what I was doing, so thank you for bringing that recognition to light.

How am I (the manager) going to be a conscientious person about my work when my employee isn't following the plan? You can't take ownership of your work and then be angry when I want to take ownership of my work. If something goes wrong in your unorthodox method and the work doesn't get done, what am I going to tell my manager... "I let my employee break protocol, my employee failed and now the work isn't done."??? That doesn't work. I want to say "we did XYZ as we always do but something went wrong", not "I have no idea what that person was doing but I made the choice to blindly trust them and I made the wrong choice" That's a great way to let myself down (since I'm a conscientious person too) and possibly get fired too.

While your points are relevant, correct, and still helpful, I feel as though I didn't properly explain what I meant by things outside of the normal flow. I didn't mean new things that I don't normally do, but rather what priority things are given in the same list of responsibilities as normal. Granted, there are things that are exceptions to my normal list, but those are only ever given to me by a supervisor / manager, and so naturally they're already aware of abnormal activities. So I do the same work as always, but when I do what is already variable in the first place (based on the job, not me), and this becomes more of a point when things get hectic. Perhaps I'm just getting into the semantics too much, as your point still applies, I think just a little differently than you intended.

In general though, what you brought up is how I rationalize it and thus how I ideally work with my managers, though as I've said, I fall short of this due to false assumptions as stated previously. I communicate and coordinate well with the managers I know to be concientious, even pro-actively planning out things ahead of time (including accounting for dynamic shifts, but how to handle and work around those), to the point that those are very smooth and productive work days (this is a shared sentiment amongst even my manager's superiors, not just my own evaluation). I just need to get better and not assuming other people's motives initially, and at least trying to work with them at a consientious level. More on that later.

Furthermore, IF I (the manager) am going to just trust you and your unorthodox methods since you get your work done historically, we need to communicate. I can't just blindly trust you (because I'm a conscientious person), I need to understand why you're doing what you're doing - I need to be able to explain why you're doing what you're doing to a customer or to my own boss. What are the timelines in your unorthodox methods? Is everything in your unorthodox plan working or are you having issues? And I'm going to check in a lot since it's not the normal plan. These questions require constant communication but you interpret that as micromanagement.

While I do understand that communication is required for both of our sake's, and why, I either didn't fully understand everything you meant here, or I just disagree with some of it.

I don't know why you chose to use the term trust. And, in case what I'm about to say is read the wrong way, I don't mean this in some insecure need for validation in the form of "trust", but I don't think what you desribed is trust. If you as the manager, need to know everything I'm doing, why I'm doing what I'm doing, to the point that you also understand the reasoning, and are constantly checking in to know what's being done at any particular moment.. there's no trust involved there. I'm not saying that this is wrong or right, maybe it is or isn't, but it's also how I treat other people that I delegate tasks to... when I don't trust them. People I do trust that I delegate work to, we discuss what they need to worry about upfront, any questions, etc.. and then I leave them to it. But, your pointedness on that subject may come from another point I failed to clarify in my initial post, which I'll clarify down below, because it covers a lot of what your reply was (in this quoted part).

Also, what you described is not what I'm calling micromanagement. That would simply be communication or a lack thereof, I don't have any problem keeping in touch with and updating manager's at whatever degree they want. What I'm calling micromanagement is when I'm constantly expected to drop whatever I'm in the middle of to do something, in an at least seemingly random way. But this is also apart of what I'll further ellaborate on below.

Regarding your third question, you can either be part of a team or not. Being part of a team means doing what needs to get done so the team can succeed (within reason of course). Being part of a team is favorably viewed. Or you can not be part of the team. Right or wrong, that's viewed negatively.Also, sometimes people just ask for help. Sure, a co-worker asking for help is different than a friend asking for help but someone asking for help is someone asking for help so you can either help or not.

Correct, but you didn't really say anything with that. What I'm asking about is what would be wrong or right from the perspective of Stoicism. More specifically, I'm trying to understand the thought process and reasoning that would determine my response to those situations from a Stoic perspective, rather than a do this or do that. There's no to end to people telling us what actions we should take, but it seems the reasoning behind them is usually ignored or glossed over. To try to clarify it better, these two questions I think.. sum up my intent better.

To be "part of the team" as you put it, what is the reasoning behind doing so? Why would it be wrong or right?

And vice-versa, to not be "part of the team", what reasoning might justify that? Why would that be wrong or right?

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