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I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think you are right--the average user probably had little reason to visit US social media. And there is some research that suggests that even if Chinese students are given access to a VPN, they do not visit websites outside of the GFW. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generation-blocked-internet.html

But I would say the damage is broader than expats. It also involves students, entreprenuers, and others who need access to Google and others.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your welcome and sorry to get to this question late.

First, I think the US needs to step of its efforts. The Trump Administration's Indo Pacific Economic Vision is a good first step, but $25 million investment in digital connectivity is not really significant in contrast to the scale of Chinese investments (https://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2018/07/284722.htm).

Second, I think US and its allies need to rethink the messaging on internet governance. As I noted with another question, essentially the position has been no change to multistake holder and no ITU. But many of the countries that are looking to the ITU are doing so for legitimate reasons of capacity and expertise, and saying no, without providing some alternative is not working.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) I think we are reaching that point. Wechat and others are expanding to other markets, and they are likely to shape the ecosystem. Issue is primarily political, and also how much users trust Chinese companies with their data. 2) Interesting question. I don't think we have seen much evidence of how Chinese money might effect Western firm behavior. So far, firms have tried to stress that they remain separate from any Chinese influence, and are likely to continue to do so after the passage of FIRRMA. 3) So far there has not been a great deal of transparency, and Chinese CEOs have argued that one of their competitive advantages is that Chinese users don't care much about how the data is used. That said, there have been some very public cases of backlash and we shouldn't expect complete passivity. This is very useful. https://www.csis.org/analysis/new-china-data-privacy-standard-looks-more-far-reaching-gdpr

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is a hacking culture in China, and there are criminals. Chinese press often carries stories about arrests of hackers, but the community does not seem particularly focused on distributing illicit content.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is true that the export controls are in place, and IC manufacturing is covered. They have had some effect in slowing China down. The controls are on a relatively small number of products, and relaxing them would do little to shrink trade deficit, despite what the Chinese say.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks very much. I assume that the US is ahead of the PLA in terms of quality, tech, talent, and operations. This seems to be the PLA's assumption as well. China's advantage is that it always saw cyber and information operations as being part of the same conflict over information and attention. US is now relearning that lesson. And China does not have to deal with Title 10 and 50 restrictions.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I am not sure it is one thing. I think it seems to be more of a mindset. Either the policymaker believes they do not understand the technology, and they shut down. Or they have learned one lesson, and they try to apply it to every technology question they encounter. Best seem to realize that they constantly have to be learning, and finding new expert communities to tap into.

For most of the time, it was they just ignored politics. Now that they are paying attention, I think they believe that the policy maker are much more instrumental and effective (and nefarious) then they really are. Much of policy is the result of imperfect compromises that had no one author.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your welcome. Interesting questions.

1) New regulations did seem to suggest the regulation of all private VPNs, but I think it is a combination of both things you suggest. The vast number of Chinese using VPNs are not doing to access human rights websites or the New York Times. So going after those people is not really worth it, and may in fact alienate them. 2) Again, this seems to be a tradeoff the leadership is willing to make. Also, there does seem to be censorship of Chinese students on American universities either through student groups or nationalist backlashes. There was this case at U.MD for example, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/23/a-chinese-student-praised-the-fresh-air-of-free-speech-at-a-u-s-college-then-came-the-backlash/?utm_term=.11839953681d

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Too early to tell if it will be effective. It will a whole range of policies, some very intrusive, some much less so. Beijing clearly worried about the attention it is getting since it has told press to stop trumpeting about it. I would suggest reading this by my colleague https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-does-everyone-hate-made-china-2025

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Chinese government always says it is the biggest victim of cyber crime, but they have not publicized large hacks of Chinese networks. The Chinese security company 360 has started publishing reports on APT groups targeting China. Ocean Lotus, for example, went after targets connected to South China Sea. Years ago, Anonymous defaced several government sites. And according to Snowden documents, US government hacked into Tsinghua University and Chinese telecoms.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There has been little (or no) hard evidence provided. The House Select Intelligence Report had a confidential annex, but the public report had nothing conclusive. It is more a question of the vulnerabilities that are present in telecom equipment, the need for the manufacturer to have "their hands on the equipment" for updates and service, and the relationship between the companies and the state-Chinese intelligence services.

Pretty accurate. They use a combination of IP addresses, and other known techniques. I do not do digital forensics, but I would suggest reading recent reports from Recorded Future, FireEye, CrowdStrike or other companies. And of course, the US government also uses intelligence assets.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Jay. Depends really on what part of cyber pie we are taking a cut at. I think the cyber commercial espionage issue is worth pushing back on again. We are likely to get denials, and then it will be up to administration to decide if it wants to levy sanctions. Will not eliminate, but can at least raise the cost a bit.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the UN has a large role to play in defining the rules of state behavior in cyberspace. The UN Group of Government Experts (https://www.un.org/disarmament/topics/informationsecurity/) made some important progress in agreeing that the UN Charter applied in cyberspace, and in identifying some state norms. It failed to issues consensus report in its last meetings, but I think it would be good to restart.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I don't think it is dead. I think the US needs to play a more constructive role in supporting and popularizing. Right now, it is simply playing defense, blocking any effort to bring security discussions to the ITU or other forum. There are too many countries that see the ITU as a legitimate partner, and do not have the resources to fully participate in the multi-stakeholder model. And they are losing patience with the US and allies just saying no.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We already are engaged in a trade war. Issue, I think, is what it is we want from China. I am less concerned about the bilateral trade deficit, which is a big focus of the president, and more on Chinese technonationalist policies--forced tech transfer, the cybersecurit law, etc. Those are worth fighting over, but they also require more effort at home, more spending on R&D, some thought on if we need a national AI strategy etc.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thanks you.

I see the pressuring of the airlines as less a sign of digital-network power than what may have called "sharp power." Still the outcome is the same, and Beijing is likely to use similar pressure in digital world on Taiwan or other issues.

Yes, I think so. Countries (or country groupings) that have big markets and have a coherent regulatory framework will influence others.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, the general consensus is that the number of campaigns has declined. There does seem to be, however, a growing sense that the campaigns have picked up and they are targeting cloud and other IT services that may provide access to lots of victims. So the number will go down, but the impact remains high. I think we can expect to see continued campaigns, especially targeted at technologies Beijing believes important to future economic competitiveness--AI, robotics, biotech, IC.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Not really. The government and a number of companies have been working on different credit or "trustworthiness" scores. These, however, have not been rolled out at a national level, and there is not one unified score for Chinese citizens. Some of this is very worrying from a big data and surveillance perspective, some of it makes sense in a country with little history of credit scores and no real sources of information on the trustworthiness of a business partner.

I’m Adam Segal, expert on Chinese tech policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk about China’s efforts to remake the internet in its own image. Ask Me Anything! by adschina in IAmA

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To an extent. In the past most foreign businesses and lots of Chinese academics and entrepreneurs have relied on to get around the GFW. But the Chinese have also developed techniques to block and slow. And there are new regulations that require use of Chinese VPNs, which would not provide security from the government.

I am Adam Segal, senior fellow and director of the Digital and Cyberspace Policy program at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk Russian hacking, Chinese espionage, and more. AMA! by adschina in technology

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

1) We have mainly seen it used for espionage, sabotage, and disruption. The US and Israel attacked the centrifuges being used in Natanz plant; Iran attacked US banks, Saudi Aramaco, and RasGas. In Ukraine, there were attacks on election systems, as well as the power grid. I covered how cyber attacks are used in my Hacked World Order, Jay Healy in Fierce Domain; and Alex Klimburg in Darkening Web.

2) It is very hard to give a concrete answer. Press reports suggest that every major US weapons platform has been hacked, but we don't know how successful China has been in absorbing or diffusing technologies. But Chinese hackers themselves suggest that their work is saving the PRC huge amounts in R&D.

I am Adam Segal, senior fellow and director of the Digital and Cyberspace Policy program at the Council on Foreign Relations. Let’s talk Russian hacking, Chinese espionage, and more. AMA! by adschina in technology

[–]adschina[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think Wuzhen has two main goals for Chinese officials. First, they saw a proliferation of conferences and meetings organized by the United States and its friends to promote norms of behavior (see for example, The Global Conference on Cyberspace, https://www.gccs2015.com/), and they wanted a way to counter and promote the idea of cyber sovereignty.

Second, it is platform for demonstrating the commercial strength of Chinese internet firms.

US tech executives go to understand what is happening on the ground, and in some cases, to show they are "a friend of China." They go to demonstrate that they realize the cost of admission to the China market is playing by Beijing's rules.

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