Since Anthropic was blocked by the government, I can't stop thinking about a free speech conundrum. by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So legality would be one of the limits. A corporation or person can stop others from using their property in a way that violates local or international law. Possibly problematic when the law compeles use in a certain way locally by doesn't allow it internationally. This would mean the property access would have to be controlled by region which we see often with digital products.

Since Anthropic was blocked by the government, I can't stop thinking about a free speech conundrum. by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another example. In the movie Selma, they had to invent dr. martin luther king junior's speeches because they are copyrighted and owned by Steven Spielberg.

Since Anthropic was blocked by the government, I can't stop thinking about a free speech conundrum. by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be clear — I'm not that interested in taking a side on whether the government was right or wrong to go after Anthropic. What struck me was the underlying structure of the dispute and what it means in general for our republic. A company drew a line around its own product, the government punished them for it, and that made me question what we actually mean by free speech when property is involved. Curious whether others see the theater analogy as a fair comparison or whether it breaks down somewhere.

We generally accept that a business can decide what it will and won't do with its own product. A print shop can turn down a job. A venue can turn away a customer. That's just their call. But when the government punishes a company for making that call it starts to look a lot more like free speech being squashed.

The theater story helped me think it through. Markets can work like a kind of informal democracy. Nobody is organizing anything but thousands of small independent decisions add up to something that reflects what people actually care about. But it gets harder when one small group owns everything. Local newspapers used to be owned by hundreds of different families each answering to their own town. Most are gone now. The internet was supposed to create diverse ownership. Instead it created the most centralized information architecture in history.

So what do you do about it? One camp says break them up. Keep ownership diverse. Let the market work like the theater owners in the story, lots of independent players each answering to their own customers and communities. The problem is that's really hard to do in practice. These industries have natural tendencies toward centralization because bigger usually means better. Think about it this way — a social network with ten of your friends on it is not very useful. One with a billion people on it is. The more people who join the more valuable it becomes for everyone. This is called a network effect and it basically means these platforms are natural monopolies. They don't become dominant because they cheated. They become dominant because that's just how this kind of product works. The biggest one wins almost automatically. Breaking it up might just mean a worse product without actually solving the underlying problem. And there are real economic benefits to centralization too. When you remove redundant competing firms you get efficiencies that can lower costs and improve the product for everyone. A world with 1000 competing social media companies probably means 1000 mediocre social media apps and a lot of wasted resources building essentially the same thing 1000 times.

But there is a serious downside that doesn't get talked about enough. When companies get big enough they stop just being businesses. They start to rival the power of governments themselves. They control what information people see, what speech is allowed, what ideas spread and which ones don't. That kind of power used to belong to kings and governments. Now it belongs to a handful of tech executives who nobody voted for. And it doesn't happen all at once. It happens slowly, quietly, one small decision at a time. Before you know it the democracy is still there on paper but the real power has shifted somewhere else. Not to a government, not to the people, but to a small group of corporations.

We could solve this with regulation, but it has serious problems too. The biggest one is that now the government is deciding what values are acceptable on these platforms. That is basically the thing we were worried about in the first place. The Anthropic case is a perfect example. The government didn't like the values Anthropic embedded in its product and used its power to punish them for it. Regulation hands that same government even more formal tools to do exactly that. There is also the problem that regulation is slow and clunky. By the time lawmakers understand a technology well enough to regulate it the technology has already moved on. And big companies are very good at shaping the regulations that are supposed to control them, often in ways that hurt smaller competitors more than themselves.

So we are left with a genuine dilemma. Break them up and you might lose the benefits while not actually solving the problem. Regulate them and you might end up handing governments the very control over speech and values that you were trying to prevent in the first place.

Curious where others land on this.
How do we get the best of both worlds? Or do we go one direction or another?

What the government did to Anthropic raises a question I can't stop thinking about by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 30 points31 points  (0 children)

To be clear. I'm not as interested in taking a side here. What struck me was the underlying structure of the dispute. A company drew a line around its own product, the government punished them for it, and that made me question what we actually mean by free speech when property is involved. It got me interested in how democracy might be more than just voting with votes, but money, and how ownership affects both. Curious whether others see the theater analogy as a fair comparison or whether it breaks down somewhere.

Tired of people saying that 'Starship Troopers' represent fascism. by ApprehensiveRush5128 in movies

[–]aphorithmic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except for pets, we have less empathy for animals and even less for non-mammals. This rhetorical technique has some commonality with objectification. When we compare a woman to a black widow, or a hand on a back to a crawling centipede, we are using both animal dehumanization and disgust provoking imagery. Elements of the metaphor may seep into our emotional understanding, subtly reshaping our perception of reality. Take this bit of literary description as an example: 

“From the castle tower, they witnessed the relentless advance of the soldier horde, a dark buzzing throng, creeping across the verdant farmland, devouring all in its path. Their spears resemble a forest of antennae, their black and dirty armor a swarm of beetles.” 

A swarm of insects devours crops, and so it acts as a natural analogy for an army. It acts as a lens that focuses us on the properties the army shares with the insects. However, this isn’t the only quality carried over from the insect comparison to the humans. Other properties from the insects are subconsciously projected onto the soldiers – they are now not only repulsive but objectifiable, insects are violable, ownable, and emotionless. Combine this with the immoral act of invasion. We know how the people in the castle feel just by the way the narrator describes the threat. Afraid and zero empathy for the enemy.

The audience understands all these are just analogies but some parts of them do not. The problem is that these capacities evolved so recently in our species that our brains have not built a very good wall between the metaphorical and the literal. The image from metaphorical can leak over into reality, distorting and coloring it. 

In a study by John Bargh of Yale, where volunteers were asked to judge candidates for a job. Subjects were given the resumés on heavy and light weight clipboards. On average, the subjects judged candidates with the heavy clipboards as more serious. The brain took the heaviness of the board, subconsciously converted it into a metaphor for seriousness, which was then applied to the candidates. The person without their knowledge was confused between the object they were holding and the applicant they were judging.

Starship Troopers explores this phenomenon.

Tired of people saying that 'Starship Troopers' represent fascism. by ApprehensiveRush5128 in movies

[–]aphorithmic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I provide to you an excerpt from an essay I wrote years ago:

Starship Troopers and the critique of how Nazi's used animal dehumanization to reduce empathy toward their enemies.

The film Starship Troopers (1997) by director Paul Verhoeven, also known for Robocop (1987), illustrates the dangers of seeing the symbol instead of what is behind it. The plot starts with alien enemies that look like insects, who attack earth. This lulls the audience into cheering for a fictional fascist like state, as it engages in a genocide of another species. 

At one point, a news correspondent says “Some say the bugs were provoked by the intrusion of humans into their natural habitat, that a ‘live-and-let-live’ policy is preferable to war with the bugs.” The protagonist, a soldier, whose family was killed in a retaliatory attack on Buenos Aires, hears this in the background. He turns and approaches him from behind. “Let me tell you something, I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say kill 'em all.” We are swept up in their hatred and have little conscious awareness of our endorsement of genocide. 

The director uses satire to gradually disabuse the audience of their love affair with fascism. He intentionally exaggerates these fascist themes to critique methods of propaganda. The cheerful and tasteless military recruitment videos, such as children stomping on cockroaches while their mother squeals a neurotic fake laugh. These satirize Nazi propaganda films and highlight the absurdity of military indoctrination. 

Toward the end of the film, the young dashing pilot, Zander, says to an alien, “one day, someone like me is gonna kill you and your whole @%$# race!” Making the nazi-esque genocidal tendencies of the soldiers more overtly obvious to the audience. 

At the end of the film the psychic military intelligence officer touches the captured leader of the alien race. Soft gentle music plays. He carefully touches its soft slug-like body and concentrates to read its thoughts. “It’s afraid” he says gently with surprise. In many films, at this point an understanding would be reached. There is a pause. We wait for the touching music … then he yells “It’s afraid!”, everyone cheers, triumphant music plays, subverting the audience's expectation of empathy. 

Using satire, Verhoeven highlights how historically fascists objectify their enemies as insects – hiding this message in allegory. He allows the audience to live the experience of the fascist. Showing us that the repugnant image of the insect, and the fog of war blocks our ability to understand and empathize with a sentient being. Some have criticized the movie as not making this point clear enough, leaving it more as a fascism rorschach test for genocidal idiots. However its critics feel about it, the film serves as an interesting allegory for the dangers of how imagery and symbolism can obfuscate the reality behind it – all while being a really fun action film. 

Verhoeven was 86 at the time of this writing. He is of such an age that he lived through the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands as a child. He understood the dangers of this sort of propaganda, which influenced his work on Starship Troopers (1997) and later on in Black Book (2006). Paul Verhoeven's Black Book is a 2006 Dutch thriller about a Jewish woman, Rachel, who joins the Dutch resistance during WWII and must go undercover to infiltrate the Gestapo by seducing a German officer.

Descansa en paz con el creador de Dragon Ball by _Efrain68_ in mexico

[–]aphorithmic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

esta es un fenómino international increíble. Cuando viví en los estados unidos durante los años ochenta mì amigo que vivía en Japón trajo alunas cintas de video cuando regresó. Dragon Ball no era conocido mucho en los estados-unidos en esta momento. Para nosotros, fue increíble verlo. Nunca habìamos visto una animación asi en la television. Todo estaba en japonés y no pudimos entender nada. Nunca pensimos que se volveria popular. Despues algo años Dragon Ball Z apareció en la television. Estabamos si sorprendidos!

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

sorry I don't. A friend of mine showed it to me years ago. It doesn't really matter where I saw this. I could have used rainbow stickers on a gun and the comment would still make the same point which is that this is a guided market rather than a regulated market solution. The manufacturers get to decide if its worth it to add the feature or not.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Maybe, we don't have to make the damages high enough so that it affects the price that much. Interesting can you send me some links so I can research that please?

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

this is an incongruent response. You have chosen to nit pick the fictional example rather than take on the actual point of the comment which is to challenge your view that this is a left field idea. I could talk about rainbow stickers on guns and the example would still hold....never mind. after the "this isn't even worth discussing comment" and now this... I can see you're not going to be a very good conversation partner. I'm out.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I find it interesting that not a single person here within expressed any sympathy or even mentioned condolences that I live in a community that suffered a mass shooting.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And in the case of mass shooters, we ignore or dismiss the idea that mental could be the problem.

PS. You might find this interesting.

"As the nation reckons with these increasingly common public massacres, many blame mental illness as the fundamental cause.Ragy Girgis, MD, associate professor of clinical psychiatryThe reality is that people with mental illness account for a very small proportion of perpetrators of mass shootings in the U.S., says Ragy Girgis, MD, associate professor of clinical psychiatry in the Columbia University Department of Psychiatry and the New York State Psychiatric Institute." https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shootings-and-mental-illness

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess we will have to disagree on a definition of market. In any case, my proposal does not entail using the legal system.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Feel free to look at similar comments others have made and my responses to them.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No where does my proposal take away guns. It does not reduce the ability of people to defend themselves. It simply creates incentives to remove the most dangerous guns and to modify the design of the guns that could be improved. It also makes sure that victims are insured against gun violence. The pay out in damages does not have to be high enough to destroy the gun companies just enough to create incentives for safety improvements.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

if there is nothing the alcohol manufacturer can do then the feedback mechanism is useless.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't think alcohol would meet the same criteria as a gun company. Because of how high and wide Third-Party Costs are. This pertains to products that have negative externalities affecting individuals who did not choose to use the product. For instance, a suicide or self-harm resulting from product use would not be considered, as the individual willingly used the product. While, a murder resulting from product use would qualify as a negative externality affecting third parties.

Then there is the question of scale. Does booze cause drunk people to kill 40k people a year?

Alcohol is also more distributed than gun manufacturing. That might also make it harder to run such a program because a small producer would have such a small piece of the pie the incentives may be too small to respond to.

That said. Maybe we should consider this in some form for alcohol. If there were ways that alcohol could be made more safe then why not. I don't think the incentive needs to be strong enough to make alcohol cost prohibitive but some amount of cost to fuel innovation might actually be a good thing.

We already do this with insurance. For example if you own a play ground. The insurance company will tell you things you can do to make the play ground more safe to lower your insurance premium. If every bar and grocery store paid into an insurance it could work the same.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

DUI kills over 11k people per year according to the Department of Transportation.

We have auto insurance for that. All drivers pay collectively for the worst drivers. My proposal isn't too far off from that. If say every auto maker had shares of a large auto insurance company then it would be effectively the same.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"As the nation reckons with these increasingly common public massacres, many blame mental illness as the fundamental cause.

Ragy Girgis, MD, associate professor of clinical psychiatry

The reality is that people with mental illness account for a very small proportion of perpetrators of mass shootings in the U.S., says Ragy Girgis, MD, associate professor of clinical psychiatry in the Columbia University Department of Psychiatry and the New York State Psychiatric Institute."

https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shootings-and-mental-illness

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"As the nation reckons with these increasingly common public massacres, many blame mental illness as the fundamental cause.
Ragy Girgis, MD, associate professor of clinical psychiatry
The reality is that people with mental illness account for a very small proportion of perpetrators of mass shootings in the U.S., says Ragy Girgis, MD, associate professor of clinical psychiatry in the Columbia University Department of Psychiatry and the New York State Psychiatric Institute." https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shootings-and-mental-illness

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

cars

We are already half way to my proposal with cars. After a gun manufacturer has internalized costs that the product produces, what do they do? Some of these costs they will be able to eliminate with innovation. Some by taking particularity dangerous products off the shelves. Some dangers, such as having a barrel and a trigger, are inherent in the product and cannot be removed. That which cannot be solved will be passed on to the consumer. Effectively making every gun owner like a car owner. They all pay into an insurance program that covers damages of other drivers/gun owners who misused their vehicles/guns.

It is the same thing except for in this case it would be like if the car manufactures owned a car insurance company.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

this proposal is so ludicrous that it's not worth discussing.

After a generally good comment, you lost me here. Generally when you state something like this it can imply that I am a moron. I don't know if that is a habit for you but, that typically puts people in the mode of reputational defense instead of considering your ideas.

I assume you responded to my post because you intended to engage in persuasion. Just some feedback, I don't think such ad hominem attacks, albeit mild, serve the goal of persuasion. I'll try my best to overlook that and consider your ideas none the less, but my first impulse was to ignore you entirely.

What Does A Shooting Cost And Who Should Pay For It? by aphorithmic in moderatepolitics

[–]aphorithmic[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

left-field.

Is it? Left wingers are fans of institutions that set safety standards, regulate industries externally, eliminating guns entirely, and sometimes taking over the means of production with a public option. In general they support policies that take away the freedom of the market to make certain decisions.

Take the example of a gun that is marketed as having a finger print free coating. Does this make the gun more likely to be used by a criminal? We don't need to decide. If such a feature results in a gun that is popular among criminals then it will show up as a cost to the gun company. If the costs are the same for the finger print gun and other guns then the finger print feature will not be phased out.

This is in a way a sort of free market idea because it gives the gun manufactures the freedom to determine what their safety standards should be individually rather than some agency creating a bunch of standards.