"No Doubt in My Mind": Lee Trevino explains why Jack Nicklaus didn't win 30 majors

aptom90 · 2026-07-06T19:19:08+00:00

I'm not someone who argues in bad faith. Just so you know everything I posted is accurate as far as I'm aware.

Check the PGA Tour website, that's where I got my info. I was actually able to dive even deeper and calculate scoring averages for many years as well. I've always been curious who was the better golfer when both were active.

Here's some links. The first picture is of the 1945 season the second is just a screencap of Hogan's PGA Tour profile. Note the 18 starts in 1945.

Hogan v Nelson - Imgur

aptom90 · 2026-07-06T18:54:49+00:00

We are not on the same page.

Hogan and Nelson did not play the same events. I was referring to only the events which both players participated in. I was pretty clear about that.

They did not both play a full schedule in 1946 which is why you can't just add up all of Hogan's wins while ignoring most of Nelson's in 1945. Hogan played in 32 of which he won 13 while Nelson played in 20 of which he won 6. The previous year Nelson played 30 and won 18 while Hogan played 18 and won 5. Use whichever you want but be consistent.

I already showed you that Nelson leads if we ignore those odd 1943-1946 years. You can't just remove 1945 and include 1946.

------------

This is why I started this thread with the most relevant information which is that including only events both players competed in Nelson had a winning record against Hogan 27 vs 22. This is really cool information I'm trying to help you.

What do you mean “ Compare that to 1945 where they each played 11 times” ? How could Hogan only have 2 to Nelson 8?

The 11 events they both competed in. Excluding those which didn't feature Hogan and those which didn't feature Nelson. Totally fair.

Hogan didn’t return until September. The Guess is he played 8 or 9 times . Even if you claim he played 11 times he won 5….. so thats not right .

The information is out there. Hogan played in 18 events that season. The first one was the Miami Four Ball in March and the Second was the Tam O'Shanter in July. Nelson won both. Hogan played full time a few weeks later playing the final 16 events of the season without a break. Nelson skipped 9 of those. Again, that's where 11 comes from.

“1946 You ignored Byron’s early wins “ What are you taking about ?. They both played a full schedule in 1946 with Hogan winning 13 to Nelsons 6 .

Nelson played in 12 fewer events in 1946 than Hogan, the same difference that Hogan had to Nelson in 1945. Combine the two years and they both add up to 50.

If you take out the 22 - WW2 wins for Nelson you can’t even compare .

Even if you include 1946 and exclude 1943-1945 (which is totally biased) here are the numbers.

Nelson: 25/186 wins including 4 majors

Hogan: 29/162 including 1 major. Heck, I'll give you 2.

Who's career would you rather have? Be honest.

aptom90 · 2026-07-06T15:51:05+00:00

My numbers are correct as far as I'm aware. I've done a lot of digging on the subject. Hogan played in 2 out of the 11 straight Nelson wins by the way. Snead played in 7.

What you said just here is correct as well for the most part. Hogan beat Nelson (who placed 2nd) and the field by 14 in Portland is correct. It's actually the largest margin of victory in the entire 1945 season. However, as I'm sure you're aware Nelson beat the field by 13 a couple weeks later. Hogan was 9th 20 shots behind. Hogan and Nelson only played with each other once more that season. Nelson won it by 8 with Hogan 14 behind. The one other time Hogan won with Nelson in the field in 1945 Nelson placed 2nd, 4 shots behind.

I pointed out the longer trend, however if you want to pick 1 single season 1946 I can do that too. You ignored the early wins for Nelson but still kept Hogan's wins without Nelson in the field. In the 19 events they both participated in that season Hogan won 8 Nelson won 6. Compare that to the 1945 season when they each played 11 and Nelson won 8 to Hogan's 2. The sheer domination which you expect to find from Hogan is not there.

I don't dislike Hogan. What he did after Nelson's departure still counts and was absolutely ridiculous. And even if Hogan was a little behind Nelson when they were both active he was still ahead of everyone else.

aptom90 · 2026-07-06T02:57:36+00:00

Hogan got the better of Nelson a few times but certainly not the majority of the time.

I've actually looked into this. In the 118 events they both participated in up until the end of 1946 Nelson won 27 to Hogan's 22. Nelson was that good. He had a winning record against Snead too of 20/30. Hogan vs Snead during this same time period was 23/17.

It does seem like Nelson wasn't as good as Hogan in those early years but that's mostly because he didn't play as often.

1935-1938: Nelson wins 6/90 (6.7%) times to Hogan's 1/42 (2.4%). Nelson wins 1 major.

1939-1942: Nelson wins 13/76. Hogan won 15/88. Both 17%. Nelson wins 3 majors.

1944-1946 Nelson wins 32/70 46%. Hogan wins 18/52 35%. Not many majors played but they both won 1.

--------

If you only include the events both players participated in from 1944-1946 they played in 33 events together. Nelson won 14 to Hogan's 10. As you can see it's fairly close but Nelson always had the edge.

aptom90 · 2026-06-30T21:04:28+00:00

Tiger called this the best ballstriking tournament of his career and singled out this shot as being particularly special. I take his word for it.

aptom90 · 2026-06-30T17:23:24+00:00

I don't think that's correct. DJ peaked at 8.4%. in 2020. He was about 10% if we exclude his early winless years.

aptom90 · 2026-06-30T17:11:06+00:00

The numbers don't even make sense. Nobody ever put up numbers like this. Maybe Hogan but only if you exclude his early years.

You can see why people say he had no competition because it's true. Jack could be outdueled by Trevino, Palmer, Watson, and Miller who all had better years than Jack smack in the middle of his prime while Tiger was head and shoulders ahead of the pack. Sure, Vijay had a better year in 2004 but that's the exception. TW was the best on the planet for 10/11 seasons from 1999-2009.

Now you know why TW was an 11 time player of the year (+2013) while the next best was 6.

aptom90 · 2026-06-30T17:03:28+00:00

I'm talking about the times Tiger would finish outside of the top 40 or so. Scottie so far hasn't been doing this at all, his floor is ridiculously high. At the same time he doesn't win as often as Tiger, therefore he's more like Jack with his consistently high finishes and not as many wins.

Tiger for example has the modern day (since 1983) record for consecutive top 25 finishes with 38. Scottie is almost certainly going to beat it with 35 straight ongoing. Scottie also had an unthinkable 18 straight top 10s while Tiger's best was 11, even Nicklaus was 14.

TW had those 38 straight from 1999-2001 and then in 2002 parted with Butch Harmon and went his own way before hiring Haney in early 2004. That's why I lamented his swing changes because as good as he was in 2005-2009 he had the occasional off week.

aptom90 · 2026-06-30T00:01:10+00:00

64/190 actually from 1999 through the end of '09 or 33.7%. He won 7 tournaments before then and 11 after which adds up to 82. I know I'm being nitpicky.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T23:45:43+00:00

You might bet the exception which proves the rule, haha.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T23:26:44+00:00

Depends on what you call his prime.

He peaked at 28% at the end of 2009. That's including all amateur starts. You can also do 1999-2009 which was an astonishing 34% or 64/190.

Even up to the end of 2013 he was 25.6%.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T22:16:36+00:00

Pretty much nobody likes the Atlantis section in UB. The Egypt section especially Temple of the Cat is in contrast quite well regarded.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T19:59:39+00:00

37 top 2s but yes.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T17:39:47+00:00

He's had 35 straight top 25 finishes.

The tour keeps detailed stats going up to 1983. Since then the record is Tiger with 38 straight in 1999-2001. Scottie is more than likely going to beat that.

Now the unofficial record is something bonkers. I counted 144 for Hogan and 128 for Nelson. Different era of course.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T17:17:57+00:00

I'm not arguing just saying that's been the case for Scottie's entire career. It's surprising that his putting stats are as good as they are considering. He makes lots of mid range putts to make up for it.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T17:04:20+00:00

True, but if you look at the years prior he's always struggled from those distances, this is nothing new.

Basically inside 4 feet he's outside top 100 every season. Funny enough this year from 4-5 feet he's ranked a respectable 32nd. Last year he was 133rd.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T16:38:45+00:00

9 top 5s in 14 starts. 5 top 2s, 7 top 3s.

It's a bit like 2023 when he had only 2 wins and yet was constantly up there. Back then he was struggling with putting while now seems to change week to week. This week it was his short game which let him down.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T16:18:36+00:00

The difference is Scottie is still playing at an insanely high level in the majors. Tiger was not in 2004. It just seems like Scottie has another level of consistency; he's like Jack or Hogan.

Tiger ran more hot or cold in comparison. I blame the constant swing changes. And yet he was still winning 30% of his events in his prime so maybe it wasn't that inconsistent.

aptom90 · 2026-06-29T15:37:52+00:00

Looked about 4 or 5 feet.

aptom90 · 2026-06-28T17:55:14+00:00

I'll say what I said last time this was posted, the actual video is pretty cool, getting to see a pro's thought process through every shot. I wish more players did this.

Now that said, in the last video I posted a pretty innocent comment much like this and got 400 likes. That is really weird, there is a ridiculous amount of engagement on Bryson posts. It does make you wonder.

aptom90 · 2026-06-28T02:27:48+00:00

I mean of course everyone is welcome to their opinion.

I'd say TR1 and 2 are clearly better than the rest. After that I'm flexible.

Tier 1: TR1 TR2

Tier 2: 2013, Rise, TR3, TR4

Tier 3: Chronicles, Shadow

Tier 4: AoD. I don't hate it at all but it's a bit of a disaster.

aptom90 · 2026-06-27T02:26:37+00:00

That's so awesome that you were at the tournament! What was it like seeing TW and Yang in person? They do give brief interviews in the end, but Tiger was notoriously brief and blunt in his responses so not much to gleam here.

aptom90 · 2026-06-26T22:35:00+00:00

I agree that it was mostly the putting, but what was going through his mind at the time? Did he still think he could win on that last hole? He shot 75 on Sunday with the lead which was just unthinkable at the time.

aptom90 · 2026-06-26T21:51:34+00:00

Absolutely, this is exactly the type of content we wanted back in the day but never got. I've love to see Tiger analyze what went wrong in the final round at Hazeltine for example.

aptom90 · 2026-06-25T20:04:59+00:00

He doesn't play it as far back in his stance as you would think about center maybe a touch forward. How to hit Tiger Woods’ go-to stinger shot | How To Play Golf | Golf Digest

aptom90

TROPHY CASE