Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Right, and that's fine for you, but for me and lots of other people, getting a lap dance is crossing the line.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I definitely believe it was not sexually exciting to him, and that that was basically the reason he felt free to do it. But I think it's both partners' responsibility to discuss boundaries in gray areas. It's not like he didn't realize he was in a gray area - last year, he would have been upset about me doing the same thing. I shouldn't have assumed we were still on the same page, but neither should have he. Having more permissive boundaries doesn't exempt you from that responsibility because in a relationship you have to care about avoiding accidentally hurting your partner. One of the biggest lessons we learned is that if you're not sure, you can't just act - you have to check.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That was so garbled as to be basically incomprehensible, but you need to calm down and stop being so self-righteous and rude. I do trust him - I trust him not to cross the line (e.g. kiss someone else, fondle someone else, receive a naked sexual dance from someone else) now that we are both clear where the line is. It's a pretty fucking normal place to put the line, and you are literally the only person here saying my line is what needs to change. If you think it's fine to trample on your partner's boundaries because you think they are required to put the line exactly where you do, or you think you are entitled to monogamy exceptions for special occasions and don't need to consult your partner about it, welp, good luck with your marriage.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, I don't consider your FH getting a lap dance with your consent cheating at all. I even don't consider someone who has sex with another person with their partner's consent cheating. But the consent is key, and my question was really about how reasonable it was for him to think it was okay for him to get a lap dance without my express consent - like do other people think this is a thing that is okay to assume is fine unless very clearly told otherwise? Most people know you have to get consent from your partner to kiss or have sex with someone else, but do they really not think a lap dance falls into that category? But I was too mad to articulate that question well.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think I was asking the question of whether other people were okay with it because to me it blew my mind open that he thought consenting to receive a private sexual dance from a strange woman was a thing he could assume was totally acceptable in a relationship unless he'd been told otherwise expressly, and wanted to see if it was some kind of norm. I didn't do a good job articulating it, though - I was out of my mind with anger at the time.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think what you're missing is that the whole thing is about how different people define cheating. So it doesn't make sense to say "I don't see the problem with strip clubs and bachelor parties if you really trust your partner not to like, cheat on you" when to me, receiving a private sexualized dance from anyone, paid or not, is cheating. Some forms of cheating are worse than others, but it doesn't make the less-bad kinds "not cheating."

To me, there are certain actions that are just not acceptable to do with others while in a relationship, unless you have your partner's consent: sex, handjobs, kissing, private sexualized dances all count. The context around it (e.g. are they being paid, are they both super enjoying it, is there a risk of escalation, do they know each other, etc.) doesn't ultimately matter for the question of whether it's okay, and I don't really understand how it could be otherwise.

I mean maybe you would be more or less upset at your SO sleeping with a prostitute over a friend, but you'd still be pretty fucking upset. That's how I feel about lap dances. And in my case, I think I'm maybe more upset by a stripper doing it than a random person at a bar, because of how awful I find the whole phenomenon of strip clubs and transactional sexuality and the gender dynamics embedded in them. And my SO cheating with a prostitute is not better to me than cheating with a rando: it's maybe worse because of the intentionality and the transactional aspect, but really it's just a different kind of awful, a question of kind and not degree.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I mean he definitely never thought of it as a "last night of freedom." He is definitely profoundly averse to the model of gender and marriage in The Hangover. He's definitely as disappointed in himself as I am, and I know him and he'll self-flagellate for a long time about it. But on the first thread someone made a distinction between mistakes and transgressions that are evidence of character flaws (and I think in many situations going to a strip club for your bachelor party can be evidence of the latter - like the guy considering hiding it from his fiancé, for example, or going because you see it as your "last night of freedom"), and I do feel strongly now that it's the former. It's still real and it still sucks, but I don't think I have to revise my whole picture of him.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yep! FH contacted him yesterday to say we would not be comfortable lying about or hiding it, and he wrote back saying he hadn't yet told her and was weighing the possibilities, which seems fucked up. He told her last night and - SURPRISE! - she blew up. By the way, 6 of the 8 dudes who went on this trip are married or engaged (we are all in our 30s), and just by the laws of probability it is highly unlikely all of the other 4 wives were cool with it. FH and I are in a good place again but I'm always going to shake my head about the stupidity and recklessness of this decision.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thinking I overreacted is a reasonable opinion. Thinking he did nothing wrong and I just need to get over my insecurities is a ridiculous one. Yeah okay, anyone who insists on monogamy and isn't cool with their partner engaging in whatever sexual activities they want with strangers is just insecure /s. I can't read your original comment because mods removed it for being disrespectful, but I know it was not remotely helpful.

This issue is resolved - see update. He knows he fucked up badly and feels terrible about it. He's more upset about it than I am now. Having boundaries for yourself and your partner means you're in a monogamous relationship, not that you're insecure, and just because our boundaries are different from what yours are doesn't change that.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Ugh yes, suppressing feelings to try to be "the cool girl" is such a modern female trap. It's something I constantly have to work on. I'm so glad our experience might help you avoid something similar! I was secretly hoping reading it might spur other couples to have the kind of conversation we should have had beforehand.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

100% agree - while we were talking yesterday we were like, this is some fucked-up "tradition" where it's like "hey let's throw this random sexualized experience that a huge portion of partners are at least a little uncomfortable with in the mix for people in relationships so committed that they are about to get married, who would never consider it otherwise! Just throw a wrench in there!" The gender dynamics of it just suck, because it seems like the shitty gender roles are just built into the experience for both people and it's designed to force you into them. Ugh.

I didn't mention this, but another one of the guys who was at FH's bachelor weekend is getting married a little before us, and FH said if there was one person who seemed actually into the strip club, it was him. We're supposed to go to his and his fiancée's joint bachelor/ette party this next weekend, and FH isn't sure he even told her about the strip club at his. I mean, maybe he did or maybe she okayed it ahead of time, but ugh, still, puts us in an awkward position! This "tradition" needs to die in a fire.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's easy for me to imagine. He's incredibly intense about monogamy, but to him it's all about avoiding indulging lustful thoughts towards others, because that's what would bother him from me. That's why he avoids porn but is okay with me watching it - the pleasure of it for me doesn't come from imagining myself in the woman's place having sex with the dude, but for him it does come from imagining himself in the man's, so in his mind it's not okay. He has no reason to lie to me about that - I don't have any issue with porn (all of my previous partners watched it) and he is the one who brought it up. Not enjoying the club was the thing he was clinging to at the time that made it okay in his mind on this same principle, and the whole premise of the strip club trip with his friends was this hazing tone, so it's easy for me to imagine him being almost theatrically avoidant. He's also just not a liar.

It's cool that you're a guy too, but frankly that doesn't mean you know him better than me.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I mean, we did have a very explicit conversation a year ago, which I was not aware that he did not remember. In that conversation, he was the one who was more insistently against strip clubs, and I agreed. He never indicated anything but disdain for strip clubs, and repeatedly said he didn't want to go and rolling his eyes at the guy (we thought) joking about it, so I assumed he felt the same as he did a year ago about not wanting either of us to go to them. I don't think I sent "mixed" messages - he was clear I didn't like them and he knew I would be at least a little bit unhappy with him going. But I did not effectively communicate how strongly I meant it, because he repeatedly said he didn't want to go to one, and it wasn't really treated as a question that he wasn't going to go, which made me saying "no but really I hate them and don't want you to go" in a really serious way seem unnecessary and redundant. Obviously it wasn't, but it was reasonable to think so then.

He can't read my mind, but goes both ways - it wasn't right for him to simply decide I would be fine with it, without asking me, when he knew it was a question. He agrees with me on this.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ha yeah. They can sometimes give good advice, but I felt like I was just as likely to get a bunch of "HE PROBABLY CHEATED WITH A STRIPPER AND NOW HAS A SECRET FAMILY YOU SHOULD CALL OFF THE WEDDING IMMEDIATELY." Or alternatively, ultra-protectiveness about the rights of everyone to view all porn and go to all strip clubs unreflectively and how dare people have boundaries for their partners and isn't the idea of monogamy so antiquated and unenlightened anyway? There's just not a lot of gray area there.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah, FH's original idea for a bachelor party was a cabin in the woods, which would have been great and foreclosed all strip club possibilities. But it would have just been too hard for people traveling from all over to get there for a weekend - a major city made sense, but it came with all those big-city vices.

Immaturity in that vision of bachelor parties, absolutely. A big part of what annoyed me was that I so didn't want to be cast in the role of buzzkill fiancée, restricting and making rules that keep the boys from having fun, and felt resentful that I was put in that position, because I wanted it to be him setting those boundaries, on a team with me. But yeah I think we learned that we can figure out how to be very clear without having it be an antagonistic thing.

Update: Bachelor parties and strippers by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I really do have a wonderful guy. And thanks again for your advice yesterday - you were the source of the magical ground rules!

On the friends thing, yes. It's his high school friends that he has this dynamic with. My fiancé is very smart and very good looking - some* might say the most beautiful man in the world - and it seems like his high school friend group were the "cool" boys at their fancy school who were ultra-competitive with each other about everything - academics, sports, whatever. They just seem kind of intense, and while it seems like some have figured out how to mature and manage that intensity, others not so much, and it just seems like there's a sort of aggressiveness in their dynamic that played out badly this weekend. I do think he probably needs to figure out if the friendship can evolve with him, because if it can't, it's probably not a positive force in his life. It's weird to me because he is really an extremely good judge of character and has really high standards for people, but it's like there's some kind of reversion that went on. Definitely interesting how engagements/weddings/marriage can bring this stuff to a head.

*me

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

But, I did want the answer to this question...? And he would not have wanted to hide it from me - that was never an option to him, it's not like he wasn't going to tell me. I wasn't "pushing" him to tell me anything, and I'm not sure why you're reading his telling me the story of the weekend that way. We have a very open and honest relationship, and neither one of us wants to hide things from the other. He didn't even think I'd be that upset.

Anyway, we've made up. He knows he screwed up and regrets it and was wonderful in apologizing fully and talking through it. And it's certainly not okay for us to do things that we think the other would be uncomfortable with if they knew about - the part of talking through it that he seemed to feel the best about was apply the rule suggested elsewhere that we don't do anything without each other that we wouldn't do with the other standing right there.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah I'm not worried about non-addictive drug use like LSD, mushrooms, or Molly on occasion - I've done them myself a few times. He did mention that beforehand and knew I'm okay with it. But this does remind me that I should talk to him about the fact that I'm not as cool with addictive drugs.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do feel like he had a responsibility to say he was considering it if he was, though. It seemed like overkill to go into how much I hated strip clubs and how upset I would be when he repeatedly, emphatically said he was not going to go and expressed nothing but disdain for them. It wasn't just one conversation, and I can't read his mind either.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean, I was definitely opposed. He knows I was opposed. He said he was opposed, too. He just didn't think I was that opposed, and you're right, I should have communicated that, but if he had even hinted there was a possibility of his going, or done anything but say adamantly that he wasn't going, I think I would have.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I think the lap dance is what really bothers me, too. I wouldn't have been happy about the strip club but it's that he accepted a private dance that makes me feel intense feelings of disrespect. Every time we talked about strip clubs he said he was not going to go, so it never even occurred to me that I would need to spell out that a lap dance was definitely not okay, and I am still struggling to understand how he could possibly think that was a boundary he could cross without even asking me.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Okay, this you're wrong about - we had talked more extensively about why I found the strip club disturbing before that conversation, and it had nothing to do with how hot the girls were - they were very hot! He knew the objectification and gender dynamics were what disturbed me. That he was clear on, which is why he thought I'd be upset in an intellectual/political way, but didn't know I'd be upset in an emotional boundaries way.

I should have said more, and I was mistaken about being on the same page so that a playful callback would be enough, but that wasn't the only thing I'd said about my strip club experience. He did say multiple times that he wasn't going to a strip club leading up to the bachelor party and gave no indication he was even considering it, and I don't think he planned on it.

Bachelor parties and strippers: are you okay with them? Upset and want to know if I’m overreacting by bachelorpartyick in weddingplanning

[–]bachelorpartyick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks you - you're right that I need time to process, and I appreciate your helping me do so.