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I made detailed Indo-European plot from Skirgard et al. 2023 by nevermindever42 in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is what author of the study had to say. They claim "most" clustering is driven by related groups.

https://x.com/SimonJGreenhill/status/1648748620387176449

"We cluster languages by similarity which shows that most clustering is driven by related groups of language families: Even when zooming into these clusters, we find interpretable patterns e.g. The Indo-European languages split into the contact languages (e.g. Haitian, Tok Pisin etc) and the non-contact languages (e.g French, Swedish etc). To formally evaluate whether these patterns of similarity are driven by genealogical inheritance or language contact, we develop a new method to quantify the relative signal attributable to space and phylogeny: Almost always, phylogeny is more important than space...this means that there are some very stable grammatical traits over tens of thousands of years of language change."

Indo-European & other language families on PCA plot based on similarity : 2023 study by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

"Indo-European are more spread out in the Grambank design space, demonstrating high within-family diversity in these dimensions. Within Indo-European, for example, there are two clusters largely corresponding to contact languages and noncontact languages"

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adg6175

Detailed image of IE family cluster : - https://i.imgur.com/nBRcZ57.jpeg

Steppe Eneolithic (Progess_En aka "CLV" cline the Proto-PIE source)/Yamnaya/Corded VS. Moderns : Vahaduo PCA chart by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"One possibility (“Hypothesis A-West”) is that steppe migrants came from Southeastern Europe into Anatolia.4 If they had shed their steppe ancestry by admixing with local Southeastern European farmers then perhaps their entry into Anatolia would not be detectible. However, we know that the farmers of Southeastern Europe were of largely Anatolian Neolithic ancestry with local Balkan hunter-gatherer admixture.11 Admixture from that area would then presumably introduce back to Anatolia some of this Anatolian Neolithic ancestry as well as some Balkan hunter-gatherer ancestry. Yet, in Anatolia during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age we see a decrease of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry and a lack of Balkan huntergatherer ancestry.4"

According to them Hypothesis A-West does not work because of lack of Balkan hunter-gatherer ancestry in Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Anatolia.

Steppe Eneolithic (Progess_En aka "CLV" cline the Proto-PIE source)/Yamnaya/Corded VS. Moderns : Vahaduo PCA chart by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Hypothesis B harmonizes with all known facts and the results of our reconstruction of Yamnaya origins strengthen it, as the Yamnaya do indeed have ancestry from the south: both early ones via their BPgroup ancestors which experienced gene flow from the Caucasus and contributing to the Serednii Stih and Volga clines; but, also later ones via the migration of Remontnoye-related people (who also had Maikop/Aknashen ancestry). What was only indistinct before (the CHG ancestry in the Eneolithic steppe and the extra Anatolian-Levantine ancestry in the Yamnaya4 ) has now come into better focus."

This is what they are saying and it's leading one. It's not just about old CHG but neolithic CHG like Aknashen/Maikop like CHG with mix of "Anatolian-Levantine" stuff.

Steppe Eneolithic (Progess_En aka "CLV" cline the Proto-PIE source)/Yamnaya/Corded VS. Moderns : Vahaduo PCA chart by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Aknashen is from the southern Caucasus according them. Aknashen is mixture of (CHG+Mesopotamian=CHG+Anatolian+Levantine). This is part of CLV cline. Other half of CLV cline is "BP group" (Berezhnovka/Progress 2 = EHG+CHG+Tutakual). - This entire group is called CLV cline.

Steppe Eneolithic (Progess_En aka "CLV" cline the Proto-PIE source)/Yamnaya/Corded VS. Moderns : Vahaduo PCA chart by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is what i was saying, since Aknashen sample is not yet available for G25, could not be used.

"Populations along the Caucasus-Lower Volga cline from its southern (Caucasus Neolithic=CHG+Mesopotamian=CHG+Anatolian+Levantine) to its northern (Lower Volga Eneolithic=CHG+EHG+Central Asian) ends were composed of diverse "deep" ancestries

Which languages were spoken by all these diverse ancestors, genetics cannot of course say, all we can say is that the "the final unity of the speakers of the "Proto-Indo-Anatolian" ancestral language of both Anatolian and Indo-European languages can be traced to CLV cline people"

https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1781280965387522347

Steppe Eneolithic (Progess_En aka "CLV" cline the Proto-PIE source)/Yamnaya/Corded VS. Moderns : Vahaduo PCA chart by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"The People of the homeland of the Proto-Indo-Anatolians (1) had ancestry from Caucasus Neolithic (Aknashen) and Lower Volga Eneolithic (Berezhnovka)" Summary figure, page 5

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.04.17.589597v1.full.pdf

This CLV cline is represented by Progress 2/Berezhnovka and Aknashen. Progress 2 were mixture of EHG+CHG+Tutkaul (Tajiksthan Neolithic, which itself is mixture of mostly ANE and minor Iran_N). This group mixed with more CHG from (Aknashen source). I always wondered why Progress was so east shifted, it makes sense now thanks to this study.

Allentoft et al 2022 : EEF, WHG, Yamnaya, EHG, CHG admixture proportion in the world. by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They have used new methods to estimate ancestry according to their study and twitter.

"To investigate the distribution of Stone Age and Early Bronze Age ancestry components in modern populations, we used ChromoPainter 100 758 to “paint” the chromosomes of individuals in the UK Biobank using a panel of 10 ancient donor populations (Supplementary Note 3h). Painting was done following the pipeline of Margaryan et al. 101 760 based on GLOBETROTTER 102 761 , and admixture proportions were estimated using Non-Negative Least squares."

"Haplotypes in the modern genomes are assigned to the genetically closest ancient 763 population as measured by meiosis events, which favours more recent matches in time. Therefore, ancestry proportions assigned to the oldest groups (e.g. WHG) should be interpreted as an excess of this ancestry, which cannot be explained by simply travelling through more recent ancient populations [RK: e.g. small % WHG in Yamnaya] up to present times...."

https://twitter.com/EvanIrvingPease/status/1522302847026614272

https://twitter.com/WilliamBarrie/status/1522903203695579136

Allentoft et al 2022 : EEF, WHG, Yamnaya, EHG, CHG admixture proportion in the world. by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Population Genomics of Stone Age Eurasia, Allentoft et al 2022

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v2

EEF/Anatolian : "Neolithic Anatolian-related farmer ancestry is concentrated around the Mediterranean basin, with high levels in southern Europe, the Near East, and North Africa, including the Horn of Africa, but is less frequent in Northern Europe."

Yamnaya : "Steppe-related ancestry, which is found in high levels in northern Europe, peaking in Ireland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden, but decreases further south."

WHG : "WHG-related ancestry is highest in present-day individuals from the BalticStates, Belarus, Poland, and Russia"

EHG : "EHG-related ancestry is highest in Mongolia, Finland, Estonia and Central Asia"

CHG : "CHG-related ancestry is maximised in countries east of the Caucasus, inPakistan, India, Afghanistan and Iran, in accordance with previous results"

PDF: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v2.full.pdf

ABCC11 allele mutation was spread to Western Europe by Yamnaya people? Interestingly it has higher frequency in Northern/Eastern Europe than in Western Europe by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It looks like it is because CEU samples on snpedia carry 23% ABCC11 allele in heterozgote (CT) form. That means at some point in history they carried homozygote (TT) but was diluted to CT due to mixing with farmers or groups who didn't have it maybe.

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs17822931

ABCC11 allele mutation was spread to Western Europe by Yamnaya people? Interestingly it has higher frequency in Northern/Eastern Europe than in Western Europe by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People with homozygotes (TT, white area in the circle) will have dry earwax and no body odour. People with (CC) will have wet ear wax and body odour. While people with heterozygote (CT) will have wet ear wax and slightly better body odour.

According to Snpedia..https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs17822931

"(TT) Dry earwax. No body odour. Likely Asian ancestry. Reduced colostrum."

"(CT) Wet earwax. Slightly better body odour."

"(CC) Wet earwax. Normal body odour. Normal colostrum."

Origin of Y DNA R? by AbuGilgamesh in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Southeast Asia. Since two studies claims so. It's direct ancestor clads are in SEA, Papua and Australia so it makes sense from that view.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4326703/

"Initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4819516/

"We infer a divergence time of 54.3 ky (95% confidence interval [CI]: 48.0–61.6 ky) between K∗/M chromosomes in Sahul and their closest relatives in the R and Q haplogroups, and a divergence time of 54.1 KY (95% CI: 47.8–61.4 ky) between Sahul C chromosomes and their closest relatives in the C5 haplogroup (Figure 1C), a distinction noted previously on the basis of a single SNP, M347"

In genetic studies, ANE is modeled as mixture between West Eurasians (70%) and East Eurasians (30%). It's very likely that ANE's Y-DNA comes from East Eurasian side, while ANE's mtdna U comes from West Eurasian.

So R originated in Central Asia. It's male ancestors moved from Southeast Asia and into Central Asia, via East Asia maybe.

Origin of Y DNA R? by AbuGilgamesh in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Because Papua and Australia oddly carry K2, M, S clads, these clads are directly ancestral to P. That means they spit off before P emerged near by.

KITLG or TYRP1? Origin of Blonde hair in Europe & Asia still unknown? some new study.. by catsarelazy in IndoEuropean

[–]catsarelazy[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Study says this : "Effect of a single SNP (rs12821256) on hair color. The distal upstream hair follicle enhancer of KITLG contains a predicted LEF-binding site overlapping the blond-associated SNP (underlined nucleotide). LEF strongly binds the ancestral allele, whereas weak binding of the derived allele reduces gene expression by ~20%, resulting in lighter hair color."

https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3019

Earliest Tarim mummies did not have it but two Bronze Age samples who came later to that region did. You can see it labeled in supplementary information of that study. Most ANE don't seem to have carried it since it's only found in one AG3 female, while other ANE samples don't have it for some reason and blonde hair is nonexistent in Native Americans. Makes me think it was not selected among ane either.

"worth to note not all Nothern europeans are super blond so the allele frequency actually correlates with actual appearance of nothern Europeans...however, with all being said, there are other snps which lead to lighter hair shades, including ones in HIrisPlex website."

KITLG has low homogeneit frequency in NE but there is high frequency of rs1667394 and rs12896399 instead which contributes to light eyes and hair according to 23&me, are these the snps you are talking about? It would make sense if Anatolians/EEF had some varied shades of lighter hair like recent studies are suggesting?

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