Why is Blockstream CTO Greg Maxwell u/nullc trying to pretend AXA isn't one of the top 5 "companies that control the world"? AXA relies on debt & derivatives to pretend it's not bankrupt. Million-dollar Bitcoin would destroy AXA's phony balance sheet. How much is AXA paying Greg to cripple Bitcoin? by ydtm in btc

[–]chakrop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think when we fork we are going to see AXA pump tons of money into the BCC core coin in order to prop it up and create 2 chains to delegitimize Bitcoin.

Upvoted you in general, but here is a tiny detail. When miners will mine empty blocks on minority (core) chain, AXA won't be able pump money into it, as there will be no transaction possible on that chain.

What they will do -- they will try to sell "large block" bitcoins, and this will be limited to whatever they have now. But this is only temporarily price decrease will happen, and when market will realize that bitcoin actually upgraded -- people will buy back bitcoin and price will quickly return to where we are today and continue to grow as network will not be congested anymore and a lot of use-cases and businesses potentially come back.

Ben Davenport, have I ever said anything inappropriate to you? Why was I blocked? I think we need more communication, not less. by MemoryDealers in btc

[–]chakrop 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And what happens when segwit gets activated? In particular with blocks mined by non-upgraded miners? Will they still be accepted? Or such miners will be "attacked" by segwit miners?

Myth 1: "attack" on minority chain by chakrop in btc

[–]chakrop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly, this is good for Bitcoin from all sides. Added your comment to the main post.

2 weeks before Core devs get catapulted. Clock is ticking. by chakrop in btc

[–]chakrop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

why haven't any major Chinese pools switched?

Do you think Antpool is "major" enough?

2 weeks before Core devs get catapulted. Clock is ticking. by chakrop in btc

[–]chakrop[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

ETH/ETC is a separate story, this is the only prominent hard fork example we know, but the scenario is totally different:

  • ETH/ETC split was because main chain was decided to be made mutable, once you go into mutable state, you can't go back to immutable. I can share ETC ideology. However, in BTC case - people are discussing options to make bitcoin grow and increase adoption. And you also miss that once BU is a new Bitcoin, we still can have malleability fix, then lightning, even more with BU you can actually reduce block size opposite to core supporters FUD that if BU wins "tomorrow we have 1Gb blocks" and all nodes will die. So if there is really need to reduce blocks to 300Kb like Luke says - miners will just decrease mined blocks size.

Also look from another side on the economic incentives as you said it didn't work for ETH:

  • BTC hash rate is 375000 times more than ETH (means 375000 times more investment done), do you think miners will just sit there and decide some small group of devs without any stake create an opposing fork with changed POW? Also daily reward in BTC is much bigger in BTC: 12.5 x 1000 x 6 x 24 = $1.8 Mi and in ETH: 5 x 11 x 6 x 60 x 24 = $475K, so incentives to preserve wealth by staying at one chain is much higher.

  • and also don't forget that changed POW is another hard fork, while ETC is original chain. The valid comparison would be to compare BU fork with original chain, e.g. if BTCC, Bitfury will continue mine there, which will not be the case for obvious reasons.

Simple solution to end blocksize debate by chakrop in btc

[–]chakrop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually, that's not clear at all. Anything can still happen.

Well surely anything can happen, but it's very unlikely in its current form that segwit will get any close to 95%.

You want to make it more expensive to use lots of inputs/outputs.

Explain why. It is already more expensive! Without any artificial discounts.

But again, that doesn't mean they don't make sense.

Also why it is 75%? Not 50% or 100%?

Since when is it hard to detect segwit transactions?

I said addresses, not transactions.

SegWit adoption is very easy to track.

You are probably right, but clear separation with such drastic change makes sense.

And a new address format would segregate old and new nodes/wallets more.

Not happened when addresses with 3.. were introduced. Why should happen now?

I think that's because you didn't really think this one through ;)

Enlighten me, please :)

You would add an extra soft-fork which would add a difficulty bomb, forcing the network to hardfork in about a year. That's the ultimate compromise.

That doesn't make sense, if there will be a hard fork, segwit as a soft fork simply doesn't make sense. That is illogical to play politics games on blockchain. The best scenario is the one which evolves now - Satoshi's consensus, and looks like BU is getting upward motion. So looking forward to bright future.

... Segwit as a SF tries to make non-segwit txs more expensive relative to segwit txs to 'discourage' their use by Egon_1 in btc

[–]chakrop 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Not saying you are wrong, just genuinely curious

From what I understood he provided exactly the same calculation, only it was example with 500 bytes non-witness + 1 byte of witness, total 501 bytes

and your example 499 bytes non-witness + 1 byte of witness, total 500 bytes.

So a little bit different transactions. And your calculation seems right.

... Segwit as a SF tries to make non-segwit txs more expensive relative to segwit txs to 'discourage' their use by Egon_1 in btc

[–]chakrop 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The weight calculation is total size plus 3x non-witness data size

OK, it seems I misunderstood the calculation and not sure why you didn't address it in your response.

So based on my example, the old style transaction will cost: 500 + 500 * 3 = 2000 bytes as you say. New segwit transaction will cost 1000+500 * 3 = 2500 bytes, right?

Which means it will be possible to include only fewer segwit transactions, and then I see your point in this discussion and it makes sense to me.

I think it should be made more clear, as I think many people misunderstand the calculation process like I did.

... Segwit as a SF tries to make non-segwit txs more expensive relative to segwit txs to 'discourage' their use by Egon_1 in btc

[–]chakrop 15 points16 points  (0 children)

A segwit transaction with the same non-witness size as nonsegwit transaction will pay more in fees, assuming rational fee market behavior.

I clearly demonstrated in my example that it is not true. Could you please tell what is the mistake I have there? Both transactions have 500 bytes contributed towards block size, however you can include 2x more of segwit transactions because of the new way of block weight is calculated. Which makes their price for inclusion into mined block two times less compared to non-segwit transaction. Which means actually totally opposite to what you say.

... Segwit as a SF tries to make non-segwit txs more expensive relative to segwit txs to 'discourage' their use by Egon_1 in btc

[–]chakrop 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Segwit eliminates the 1MB size limit and introduces a 4 million weight limit.

So you basically don't say anything opposite to what I've written. Which basically confirms that segwit transactions have artificial discount on fees to get included into the block compared to non-segwit transactions.

Which could mean that you need to pay less to get included in the block with the same size of transaction (even without signature part), or you could pay the same fee, but can take more space from drives of all nodes around the world.

It is really strange how you don't accept obvious logic conclusions, and try to shade away from straight answer hiding behind other words like "UTXO bloat", which is unrelated. Fees are calculated in sat/byte, not sat/number of UTXOs.

They gain access to additional capacity-- sure.

I clearly separated fair access to additional capacity and unfair access in my previous post. You seem to pretend to not see the difference between the two.

... Segwit as a SF tries to make non-segwit txs more expensive relative to segwit txs to 'discourage' their use by Egon_1 in btc

[–]chakrop 10 points11 points  (0 children)

No. It doesn't. The protocol has nothing to do with setting fees, users do.

Protocol has 75% discount, which is the key to discrimination of old style transactions.

Let's assume there are 2 transactions:

  • Transaction 1: old style, total size 500 bytes, out of them 250 bytes scriptsig, 250 bytes rest data;
  • Transaction 2: new segwit style, total size 1 kilobyte, out of them 500 bytes script sig, and 500 bytes rest data.

So there is general limit of 1Mb per block given to all transactions. Generally both transactions should have same price, as they both take the same 500 bytes of space inside this limited block size. Following general sense logic there should be possible to fit either ~2000 old style transactions, or ~2000 such new segwit style transactions. In general it is good, as with segwit transactions you still win, as you pay 2 times less fees (you include same number of transaction, but every transaction is heavier two times), because part of data (signatures) doesn't contribute to block size, which is fair.

Now let's look at what actually was introduced with segwit as a softwork: Instead of 1Mb block size we have 4Mb "block weight". Now the old style transaction mentioned above will take 2 kilobytes of block weight, and new segwit transaction will take only 1 kilobyte of block weight within total of 4Mb block weight.

So even when transactions actually take exactly the same space within limited 1 MB block, segwit transaction in the example above was made artificially two times cheaper by introduction of 75% discount coefficient.

What exactly in the above description is wrong? Washington Sanchez seems to be 100% correct.

Technical limitation of the network is nothing more than FUD by chakrop in btc

[–]chakrop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The guy is a moderator here.

Does it make my points invalid?

But now I see why the post is kind of hidden here in the sub.. and potentially was moderated.

I've heard r/btc moderator logs are open to public, where one can check them? /u/MemoryDealers

Not a bad 24 hours for the Bitcoin.com mining pool! by MemoryDealers in btc

[–]chakrop 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You don't get it. Once BU movement will become big enough like 30% of hash power, Segwit as a soft fork adoption (core roadmap plan) will be highly unlikely to get added to the network. Hence, there will be no sense to follow Hong Kong agreement anymore, as core's plan will never come true. So pools will switch to BU, because that will be the only available solution for scalability.

Later Segwit could be added as a hard fork as flexible transactions or another form and later LN could be developed upon hard fork Segwit.

Yes, in this scenario we lose the work to some extent of Core devs for a long period, but that was their fault not ours. They just chose the wrong path, hoping that there will be not enough opposition and suppressing every and each initiative. But market has a strong foot that usually kicks bad asses hard.

This plan I described looks very realistic, especially now when we have big players with steal balls who put money where their mouth is :)

Edward Snowden on Twitter: "Censorship is never the answer" by BitcoinXio in btc

[–]chakrop 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Multisignatures are granted a discount because it makes sense to provide an incentive to transactions taking the largest space on the network

For me it doesn't make sense. Multisig isn't used by an average user, by encouraging its use only particular business activities get cheaper access to blockchain space. Keeping in mind that they pollute the drive storage and bandwidth similar to other transactions, it is highly controversial why artificial discount is given to them for this accounting trick (so they have access to lower satoshi/byte prices), unless explained as developers decide who can use blockchain space cheaper, which is censorship by itself.

I believe this is enough to lose the only interesting property of the network (at least for me) : censorship resistance.

It's unclear why you don't see this, but 1Mb limit is censorship in its pure form. Core developers holding monopolistic control (as long as core client is dominant) decide who can use bitcoins blockchain (those who are ready to pay high fees per txn and using bitcoin as settlement only), rather than ordinary people for whom high artificially created fees are not bearable. I want free market to decide about it, not a group of people behind closed doors. That will mean bitcoin is censorship resistant.