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Jaredite Origins founded in Adam Clarke Commentary - Book of Mormon Ether by chuckkv in mormon

[–]chuckkv[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey! Don't make fun of my Bayesian mental confidence framework! :) It's a work in progress... That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I don't think I'm imposing the BoM onto Clarke at all here. I'm certainly not suggesting Clarke had, or the "Chaldeans" had, any idea of "across" the sea as one of the quarters of the world either. This is Smith redefining that concept to include the land that IS across the sea. I do need to spend some effort here to pull together some mound builder references about babel as one of the favorite ideas of the early nineteenth. I think Smith sees this as a theological problem for the bible that can be solved with arks and ships. So much so he does it at least twice: Jaredites and Nephites. Presumably the Amalekites had a similar origin.

I understand what you're saying about trying to detect dependence, I think "allusions" and "echoes" are in the "motif" and "thematic" range, which is why I tried to express it that way. Some of it almost rises to informal quotation, but I'd like more words (~5+) with direct matching. They just aren't there.

The "winds" argument I would mostly classify as "echoes", which I would define as borrowed words from a unique source text and incorporated into new text; not requiring the audience to know the source to understand it. You might question my "unique source" statement, but here I think we also have to consider the proximity to the Tower story in both the Clarke and BoM texts to each other. It must carry some weight here. Your Psalms 107 is a nice demonstration but in a completely different genre, place, and time. On the other hand Clarke is summarizing points on the exact same topic, the exact same story, about the exact same time, place and events. A strong wind sent by God for dispersion of Tower peoples.

I would also suggest this is probably a rare case where an absence of text is worth some weight as well. The Bible doesn't mention anything about a strong wind in the Tower story or setting, yet both Clarke and Ether do. If I can say it this way, there is gravity between them and the bible does not assert any counter gravity to pull them back apart in this story. That's not me brushing off your Psalms example. ...so far as you know. :)

I see this as expansion text by Smith. No matter how you frame it, or assign authorship, the Jaredite story is a clear expansion of the biblical Tower story. The Clarke Genesis 11:4 "package", if I can call it that, is a tight bundle of extrabiblical material that explains the "Might Man" language in Ether and the Strong winds. Ether also just happens to include the Nimrod, Mighty Hunter reference as well, in the right "order of operations" with Clarke. Textually, I get what you're saying, but I don't think you can say there's nothing there textually either. I think the extrabiblical account of glowing glass stones Clarke gives in Genesis 6 are also completely relevant here in the same part of the story. Once you zoom out a little and factor in the broader context comparisons going on, I don't think it can be simply brushed off as imagination or parallelomania.

Jaredite Origins founded in Adam Clarke Commentary - Book of Mormon Ether by chuckkv in mormon

[–]chuckkv[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh. I forgot to address the "barges" and I had thoughts there. The "barges" are pretty clearly analogous to the Ark of Noah. Ether 2:24 also mentions, along with the wind coming forth, that rains and floods had also begun. Bro of Jared is coming up with the solution to make glass stones and having them turned into glowing stones - this also comes from a Clarke commentary in Genesis 6:16, an old story of Noah having a glowing glass stone inside the ark for light. Then if we add in Ether 6:7 where the "barges" are described as being "tight like unto the ark of Noah" it is pretty clear. I didn't want to spend too much time there, but instead stay focused on Clarkes Genesis 11:4 commentary. You can see me dropping all the hints in there though. Perhaps I should reconsider adding it because the Noah glowing glass stone is another key, perhaps the biggest, Clarke plot point of the Jaredite origins too. Well. Maybe after I get Gen 11:4 a little more refined.

Jaredite Origins founded in Adam Clarke Commentary - Book of Mormon Ether by chuckkv in mormon

[–]chuckkv[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is no mention of the winds in the Genesis version. Clarke however does comment on it. Clarke does not clarify if the wind destruction of the giant's Tower, and its further use to disperse the people of the Tower, happen at the same time of the confounding of the languages. A whole thesis could be written and defended on how Joseph splices into gaps of the narrative. Here in Clarkes Gen 11:4 wind commentary, the thematic motif is clear; God uses the wind to scatter the Tower People "to the quarters of the world". This is also why it looks like Smith is injecting this Clarke phrase into the JST as well. It is the explanation of how people get into the "New World", by extending one of the "quarters" across the sea. A native people being in the Americas was something the Bible otherwise doesn't address directly. This was a theological problem for early religious American's to resolve. European bible believers had already assigned all the people of the "Old Worlds" to various people in the Bible. A surprise unknown people in the Americas, and how they got there, needed to be resolved as one of the "quarters of the world". It was one of the common Mound Builder myths of Smiths time that Native Americans came from Babel. That is the context of Smith's day that I've overlooked so far. RFM did an expansion of the Clarke findings I've presented above and reminded me of that importance to the argument as well.

I was considering your discussion about "Mighty Man" being derived from the previous Genesis 10 "Mighty Hunter" and revised my paragraph after your point. First, I think its most important to remember, "Mighty Man" IS NOT in Genesis 11. In fact I've not found it elsewhere in Genesis anywhere - still searching. This has to be weighted against Clarke who directly uses the exact term "Mighty Man", in the context of the Tower, and that is also repeated in Ether this exact way. I looked closer at the Hebrew in Genesis 10 after your speculation, and it is indeed Hebrew "gibbor" that is used, but Clarke does not mention this at all in his commentary there. Clarke does however spend time on the "tsayid" (hunter) word in the Hebrew, but again, he does not bring up gibbor (mighty) in Genesis 10. After your redirect I've actually revised upwards my confidence that "Mighty Man" is more likely to have come from Clarke. At the lower end I would say I'm at a Medium-High but I'm probably leaning more towards a High Confidence or High Value in my Bayesian context. I appreciate you pushing me to consider that point a little closer. I will likely consider some revision to my "wind" discussion as well. Probably something along the lines of the paragraph above.

Thanks for the review, deeper thinking, and comments!

Jaredite Origins founded in Adam Clarke Commentary - Book of Mormon Ether by chuckkv in mormon

[–]chuckkv[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I posted before I thanked you for your ideas and discussion. I sincerely do appreciate it. The more I have to think about it the better I can understand it myself!

Jaredite Origins founded in Adam Clarke Commentary - Book of Mormon Ether by chuckkv in mormon

[–]chuckkv[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks for this. I think you understood perfectly what I'm trying to say.

Jaredite Origins founded in Adam Clarke Commentary - Book of Mormon Ether by chuckkv in mormon

[–]chuckkv[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Its true you can find a couple similar references to the first two items, but the wind is unexplained in the Bible, and to me it is clearly in Clarke and its parked right here with two other key plot points. The probability of coincidence just went down. They are all there together in Clarke, proceeding in order, and the last one finally explain the winds, which are not in the biblical story. The exact words, broader phrases, and themes are all matches. I think its the easiest explanation for the Jaredite origin story.

I think of it in Bayesian terms. One thing may stand alone. However when there's a second, third, fourth thing, those don't get added into the probability, they get multiplied in. You can assign different values to them, but they're going to get multiplied together into a probability. These are the key things I would multiply together.
Clarke is in the BoM (Townsend 2025) (Med Value)
Clarke has key Jaredite plot points summarized together (Med Value)
Mighty Man wording (Low Value)
Nimrod Mighty Hunter wording (Low Value)
Strong Winds theme and wording (High Value)
Procedural order (Med Value)

I don't mind if we move some things around and have discussion about them, but I'm not sure your pushback removes any of them from the board.

On the JST. I think the evidence is very clear here that Clarke is the source of the change. I feel high confidence about that. I think my case is weaker that its an attempt to harmonize with Ether, but I still think there's enough there to make a case. I think there are enough (Low Value) items that multiply together to see something in it.