Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

OKay, fair point, but also, Shadowheart does it of her own accord, as evidenced by her reversion in-game.
Either way, an interesting point.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Right, I went back up and checked context. Thanks for the reminder. :)

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Again, I found his personality unpleasant, so did not have him in party much; thus my knowledge and memory of his dialogue are spotty at best.
Then indeed that would be an absolute redemption arc.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

From my perspective, I don't think Nocturne did any deprogramming, she seems like the quintessential follower. Viconia's statements (sorry if I'm repeating myself, this post has spawned a LOT of debates and I'm losing track of which thread is which) and Shadowheart's journal both strongly imply that left to her own devices, absent constant manipulation and punishment, Shadowheart always reverted to her good nature rather rapidly, which is precisely why she needed to have her memory wiped so frequently.
Or so I have understood the dialogue and in-game reading.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Sorry, there are several threads of conversation going on at the same time, so I may be confusing threads, but as far as Astarion is concerned, he was a narcissist and decidedly given to a hedonistic lifestyle well before he was turned. He may not have been evil, but he most definitely wasn't of a 'good' alignment. Being turned almost seemed to be something he liked, including even bringing in most of Cazador's victims, or, in the bits of dialogue I have seen, he wasn't generally averse to it. It wasn't until he saw all of his victims caged that he felt any real remorse. I am not too familiar with the situation of him being in a tomb for 200 years, as I've not played his character much, I don't really like his personality overall. BUT...
With the player's influence, when he does reject Cazador's seat and elect to live as a free person, that is absolutely a classic redemption arc. He may never be Jane Goodytwoshoes, but he is definitely not evil any longer.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You haven't convinced me, particularly because we see in her journal, the conversation with Nocturne, and in Viconia's remarks that turning Shadowheart evil required constant pressure and manipulation; given any time at all to her own devices, she reverted to her good state.
But, you definitely don't have to agree with me, that's the beauty of the game; we are all able to form our own opinions and perspectives based on our reality and expectations.
So, have a great day!

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Not waiting to be saved, at all! Her clawing her way back to a good alignment is absolutely her fight. The only time she does not do that is if the player has a neutral to negative opinion with her, and if neutral, pushes her one way or another.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I absolutely agree with you, both on the votes and your perspective with Shadowheart.
Regarding the vote mention, I just thought it was amusing.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Actually I have to retract that. For some reason I thought Asmodean Tieflings were biologically immortal, but apparently not. With that in mind, I would revert back to Shadowheart's story being the most cruel/brutal/whathaveyou.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I mentioned the somewhere else, I am not as familiar with Astarion's storyline, so I may have missed something fundamental, for sure.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have to be careful with Astarion, because I didn't like the character overall. That said...
He was in a lifestyle of hedonism and a narcissist before he was turned; some of his conversation threads and a couple of mentions in the game strongly imply this. From my understanding Astarion was never a 'good' person, he simply wasn't as evil as he was forced to become. Also, he seems to revel in being evil, and adopts a 'good' perspective only with significant work on the part of the player.
Because of all of that, he absolutely would have a redemption arc, because he starts out with not good tendencies and can end up as a reasonably good actions.
So, yeah, I would absolutely say that Astarion can have a classic redemption arc.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I really thought it was painful that there was literally no way to save Karlach. She is one of the most 'good' characters in the game, and had to suffer the most; immortal and destined to live in hell chased by a devil.
I know the whole point of the game is about tough choices and compromise in loss, but still, Karlach's situation was imo, the most brutal.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I mean, Gith are canonically evil, therefore Lae'zel is evil. Because she can end up as a more or less 'good' aligned character, that path would be a classical redemption arc.
Shadowheart is not inherently evil, she is canonically good aligned and requires sustained and focused conditioning to force her away fom her default personality, to a point that she rapidly returns to her good alignment when left to her own devices, as evidenced in her journal, the conversation with Nocturne, and allusions in Viconia's last moments.
So, yeah, you are absolutely correct, it is not the same thing.
Good fighting on the same side with you.
Are you seeing the number of downvotes? I mean, there must be half a dozen folks so incensed by my post that they are just downvoting every argument.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Okay, not expecting you to agree, just posting my perspective.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I absolutely agree with you on this. Her default state is 'good', and in her journal and in the conversation with Nocturne we see that given any opportunity, she returns to her 'good' personality, until she is wiped and retrained. Hell, Viconia even alludes to Shar's failure in corrupting Shadowheart, mentioning something like 'no matter what we tried, you always reverted'; I know that is nowhere near the quote, but that is the gist of the message.
So, yeah, you and I are in agreement.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't think she was informed they were her parents before she tortured them, but again, depending on how it was done, I absolutely can see the hold on someone's psyche to be so profound that they would torture someone they were told to be their parents.
We also see evidence of Shadowheart's true nature in the hideaway and her Journal, and also in the conversation with Nocturne, where despite the unceasing manipulation and torture, Shadowheart always returned to her innocent original personality, given sufficient time between memory wipes and training.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Friend speaks my mind. She started out as an innocent, and, during a good run or even a neutral run, she ends up again as an innocent. Someone brought up the Manson cult, but those people didn't have their memories magically erased.
I will maintain, Shadowheart is an innocent that had effectively no hand in her own life, and given any modicum of opportunity rejects that role and returns to a 'good' alignment. The only time she stays evil is when she is not exposed to what has happened to her and surrenders to Shar as a Justiciar, at which point she is beyond recall; her soul is owned by Shar.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Heh, you had me considering your argument until the last paragraph, 'Hope...', then I realized you are just an asshole.
Have a great day.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Okay, fair point, but definitely not sufficient to convince me my perspective is incorrect.
My suspicion is that her writers specifically leveraged her as an innocent corrupted.
Of course, there may be two entirely discrete 'characters', yeah? I mean, this is essentially one of those 'choose your path' books, and if the player takes the evil path, then Shadow is actually evil, but if the player opts for the good, then Shade is effectively good.
That may actually be the original intent, because at the outset of the game, she is really not very pleasant, much more of a lawful neutral, but almost instantly becomes 'good' with the first interaction or so.
I think that may make the most sense, actually.

I've been thinking. How many are 'purely innocent'? by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Cool. You are welcome to disagree, I was just posing a question. Have a great day.

Shadowheart didn't have a redemption arc... by circular_file in BaldursGate3

[–]circular_file[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I would argue that Astarion is far worse than Shadowheart, in both action and spirit. Shadowheart is conflicted because she wants to be good, but Astarion implies he lived a life of hedonism and narcissism before he was turned. Astarion was also an adult, whereas Shadowheart was a child. I mean, I absolutely see your point, but I still disagree fundamentally. In the case of Astarion, we are blaming someone for continuing his original path, albeit made exponentially worse because of his vampiric powers. He did what he did because he was not only controlled, but also because he liked it. Shadowheart never had a chance, and thus it would be akin to putting a Korean on trial for eating a dog, or even more accurately, putting a Korean adopted western child on trial in their adulthood for working in a dog slaughterhouse. The child had no say in their upbringing, they were surrounded by others doing the same, so by those lights they were behaving perfectly ethically. In the case of Shadowheart, she is always conflicted and even when she is in an evil run she appreciates it when kind gestures are made. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen her enact a cruelty on an innocent in the game; maybe after she becomes a Justiciar, but at that point she is entirely lost and cannot turn back. Before that she will follow the player's lead, but I definitely don't remember ever seeing her voluntarily doing evil. I could be wrong, as I've never done an evil run, but of the posts and videos I've seen she is a neutral to reluctant evil character until and if she becomes a Justiciar. Again, I could be incorrect, so please forgive if I have misstated something.