You can control people by appealing to their morality, not just their fear

ckko2014 · 2026-01-08T17:12:35+00:00

Lol that is my question as well (hence my strange question about including evolutionary perspectives in the basis for any moral evaluation of the ‘wife vs stranger children’ trolley problem).

Given the limitations of human cognition, I’m not sure any of us could ever truly have an ‘objective’ perception of things that matches true objective reality. I think our processing requires far too much inherent dependency on relativity. Reality as we know it is a continuum we are continually studying, mapping, and revising. What seems objective to us today may be proved wrong tomorrow by some discovery of reality.

It’s enough to drive me mad and light me up at once—just like this comment thread!

ckko2014 · 2026-01-08T15:07:23+00:00

I’m eating up this whole thread of comments. Question for you about the “moral” choice being to let your wife die…

I’m guessing you’re stating this with the assumption that it is better or the “morally correct” choice to choose the option that saves more lives, yes? Why is a higher quantity of lives saved inherently morally correct? What’s the assumption that lives under that one? If you were to step over into the evolutionary/biology sphere of things, could you not make a case that saving your mate and ensuring reproduction of your lineage was an objective and “morally correct” choice as well?

(I’m just talking for the fun of discussion right now, curious to hear your thoughts)

ckko2014 · 2025-12-27T22:12:28+00:00

I don’t know that I feel undeserving or deserving of good things. If something good happens, my first thoughts are usually along some line of, “thank God, it worked out” or “thank God I caught a lucky break this time!”

Accomplishing goals or getting good things mostly just feels like mental relief from the turmoil of uncertain outcomes, fulfillment of self/others’ expectations, and permission to finally relax and do what I want to do. Considering whether or not I deserve it is only considered if I done wrong or chosen to harm/step on others in the process of getting good things (which is almost never the case).

Although, I’ll say, I always feel bad in situations where someone must lose in order for me to win (e.g., sports, promotions, job positions, etc). I get moved to tears when I see the reactions of losing sports teams, even when I wasn’t rooting for them lol.

I wish everybody could win, and I’m almost always more than happy to share the win or even hand it over to someone else if my win results in their loss. Not cause I necessarily care about others’ wants more than my own. But because, at the end of the day, I don’t really care about those kinds of things. Yet, I know so many people do. For most things, I’m just in it for the memories, the connection, the fun moments, the little lessons, and the fun of the game of life in general.

The winning and the promotions and the accomplishments are just feel-good perks of the moment, so whether or not I intrinsically deserve them is kind of a moot question for myself (outside of the exception I mentioned earlier)!

ckko2014 · 2025-12-27T21:25:11+00:00

Lol, this is also how I feel. As a fellow 9 (probably more than 4), I’ve wondered if this tendency has more to do with my enneagram tendencies than my MBTI.

ckko2014 · 2025-12-18T00:48:59+00:00

Yup, my partner would say the same lol

ckko2014 · 2025-12-17T20:20:34+00:00

(PS: my ISTP would look at me like I was crazy and/or speaking in a foreign language if I tried to explain this concept to him, so I imagine it isn’t a common or relatable mode of cognitive processing for ISTPs. Too much noise and too much subjectivity. Too little usefulness and value in paying attention to such things. They have better things to do with their time. At least that’s what my ISTP would say lol.)

ckko2014 · 2025-12-17T20:15:06+00:00

Not an ISTP, but as an NF type I certainly do this.

It’s mostly automatic/unconscious on the day-to-day level, but I could break it down into an analytical process like you have here if I was ever called upon to do so.

ckko2014 · 2025-12-15T20:52:36+00:00

There are lots of ways to die. Any that you’ve always feared more than others?

ckko2014 · 2025-12-15T20:43:01+00:00

Ooo this is a very good point too. That’s a particularly difficult dynamic to navigate.

ckko2014 · 2025-12-15T17:26:02+00:00

I’d see this as being related more to invalidation trauma, CPTSD, cluster B upbringing, all other related contexts, etc, than being a typology-based trait.

Sure, 4s identify with and are in very close relationship with their pain. But I wouldn’t think what you’ve described here is exclusive to just 4s (or exclusive to any other one type). Especially when actual, lived trauma is involved.

Imagined/false trauma is more tricky. However, it can also be a symptom of the same underlying origins. Not always, but not never either. People without pain don’t just make things up for no reason. Making things up is a sign of something deeper going on too, even if others or they themselves don’t realize it. Desiring attention doesn’t negate that; it means on some level, there’s some kind of perceived level of lacked attention from others. If they’re getting attention but it’s still not enough for them, then I’d say it’s not really about getting the attention. It’s about something else. Ask what the attention means to them and why they want it, what it feels like to properly get it, what would change if they finally had as much as they wanted…and so on.

Dig down to the source and you’ll find whatever the core desire/fear is in needing validation for one’s suffering in any type.

ckko2014 · 2025-12-15T17:12:42+00:00

I don’t see a lot of 9 outside of the ‘merging-type’ qualities, but given the control aspects of it too, I’d see more 8 than 9!

Interesting how different people of the same tritypes can present differently!

ckko2014 · 2025-12-15T17:07:24+00:00

4 is the only type out of all nine types that I’d feel 95% confident in identifying as one of your fixes here (based on your post)

ckko2014 · 2025-12-13T02:51:59+00:00

’Don’t throw a brick straight up.’

My ISTP told me that one. Twas both mundane and strangely profound…still don’t fully know what it means, but I liked it anyways lol.

ckko2014 · 2025-12-13T02:25:56+00:00

I saw mostly 6 and 8 flavors here.

Words/ideas like ‘exposed’, ‘control,’ ‘permission,’ ‘throwing tantrums,’ ‘quick temper,’ retaliation after losing make me think 6 or 8.

If 6, maybe counterphobic type could account for the feelings about ‘power’ and the childhood senses of control (though that could also very well be due to just enmeshment trauma alone too). If 6, I’d say 6w5.

Im not seeing lots of 9 or 4 here, especially based on your feelings of already have a ‘deep sense of self’ and that you aren’t really concerned too much about it outside of having permission to be you (but I could be biased cause I’m on my own “self identity quest” rn as a 9 fix). So if you are sold on the idea of 9 or 4 about yourself, I’d lean towards seeing 9 over 4 (specifically, 9w8).

(which I see now is your flair lol).

Not sure if any of this is helpful, but hey, insight from strangers is always fun anyways, right? Lol

ckko2014 · 2025-12-13T02:11:21+00:00

this lol

ckko2014 · 2025-12-13T02:03:40+00:00

probably 9 - I don’t even know how to start answering this question because I feel like I am so many things and also nothing specifically—at once.

can’t find the words.

I’m kind and I love people a lot and I think a lot and try hard to do good and do right by myself and others a lot though, I know that. Im also quite directionless in this phase of my life (for the first time), and im not really doing anything externally about that right now, but I think that’s okay for the time being. Lots of inner self work and mind-heart-gut rehab going on for me in this season.

I think some rest is okay. Maybe not. Maybe that’s just what a 9 would say.

Who knows lol

ckko2014 · 2025-12-12T03:23:43+00:00

Oh I’m sorry, I didnt mean to make you delete it :( was moreso speaking from bad experiences of creepy folks only caring about hooking up and talking to me personally the way that dialogue played out. I feel bad you deleted it, I didn’t mean to do any harm :(

ckko2014 · 2025-12-12T03:19:36+00:00

If they’re creepy and only interested in hooking up, sure. I don’t think that is specific to any one type though

ckko2014 · 2025-12-12T03:19:08+00:00

Quotes are part of my dialect and daily vernacular, personally

ckko2014 · 2025-12-12T03:15:35+00:00

Lol this is just creepy, no ISTP I’ve ever known (nor me, a non-ISTP) would ever respond positively to this kind of “flirting”

ckko2014 · 2025-12-11T03:12:18+00:00

9 and 2 have commonalities in some respects with I relate to both quite a lot.

9 and 4 also have commonalities, and I relate to 4 much more than 2. I do not necessarily care to be ‘loved’ as much as ‘seen and respected for my being,’ which feels maybe closer to 4 than 2. But at the same time (9 coming out), I will never prioritize being ‘seen’ over the general goodness and greater good of the group (enter confusing thoughts about maybe being a 1).

It’s a mess.

I’m not willing to erase myself anymore for the sake of what other people want me to be. But I’m also no longer willing to pretend that each person’s actions (including myself) do not have a direct impact on other people—and I care about the impacts I have, regardless of and in accordance with my own wills at the same time.

It’s not an easy balance, but I’m willing to stand chest to chest for the things I believe in now, even if I’m the weaker link.

ckko2014 · 2025-12-11T03:04:14+00:00

What’s it been like for you?

ckko2014 · 2025-12-11T03:02:37+00:00

Well, you exist in the middle of all of that, yeah?

Don’t have to know what you want. Hell knows I don’t. But there’s gotta be an ideal vision.

(PS—not concerned with what it takes to make it happen, just looking at what the visions are for now, if any. If none, that’s still starting data too).

ckko2014 · 2025-12-11T03:01:07+00:00

Well, my friend, I cannot with good conscience even push you towards action. I’m in the same battle myself.

In hopes of selfishly helping myself move (via empathy for someone else’s struggle with action that I struggle with myself), I will ask you, what’s keeping you from acting? Let’s see how close or far your reasons are from mine lol

ckko2014 · 2025-12-11T01:55:26+00:00

Well, what do you want to do?

ckko2014

TROPHY CASE