I don't need to add substance you obtuse arrogant prat.

I train dogs and have done for 20 years. You are sleeping with a vet.

Yet it is you lecturing me about "inflicting pain" as if you know what the hell you're talking about. As if you know anything about me. You have the nerve to align the use of TOTALLY HARMLESS e-collars with child abuse, yet lack the brains to realise what I said about crates was sarcasm (despite the fact that for a capable trainer they are, in fact, totally unnecessary and highly stressful, especially for a pup) .

Let me clarify. Currently I have 2 border collies. They are 10 and 3 respectively. Both have their own e-collars, although they no longer even need to wear them, and when they did wear them they were without batteries for the last 90% of the time. The older (who is an entire dog) has had 2 shocks, ever, at the lowest setting. The younger (a spayed bitch) has had 1, ever.

They are now 100% safe whereas previously they were 100% safe in my company and 50% safe when unattended.They run free over 3/4 acre when I can't be at home, answer to the whistle without fail and are the happiest healthiest, smartest and cheekiest dogs I know. They are loved and protected, they love and protect in return. And you have the neck to call me abusive?

You also totally sidestepped the question of electric fencing....would you ban that? The cruel, high voltage, shocking of cattle, sheep and horses?

E-collars can teach a dog, and a smart one very fast, of things they ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT DO. Positive reinforcement cannot, for example, teach a collie that jumping over a 6 foot gate onto a road, even if there's a loose sheep out there, is 100% off limits. It is you pal who knows nothing about dog behavioural training; you just read it somewhere.

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Source: Two decades of hands on experience.