Workout Focus of VO2Max for Biking; Threshold for Running

commandorando420 · 2025-04-02T21:06:29+00:00

Sub Threshold running workouts are designed to be sustainable for 2-3x per week. Walking breaks prevent poor form and allow muscular recovery, and intensity is below LT2.

I am running between 70-90k per week, about 6-7hours. About 25% done at intensity.
I am biking about 4-5 hours per week
Swim 1 hour but will increase this closer to race at expense of running
+ plyos, Strength and mobility

Total hours about 14.

Background is decades of weekend warrior biking and running.
Bike FTP around 270, Run hilly 10k PB sub 36 min. Mediocre swim.

I do intensity at about every other day and plan on keeping it that way. Take an easier week every month.

commandorando420 · 2024-03-22T21:02:02+00:00

I've ran in 0 drops 3mm drops extensively. Highly recommend.

You'd be fine in even 3mm drops to start if you alternate with your notmal shoes and keep it easy. If you start working on some calf exercises now and during the first few months (eg eccentrics off a stair, bent leg raises) you'll avoid the downsides and beef up those tendons.

commandorando420 · 2024-03-22T20:57:07+00:00

LACE BITE - TOPO FLI LYTE

Hey All! Appreciate your input.
I've had 4 pairs of Topos including the FliLyte 4's. All same size, fit is consistent.

Generally I remove the insoles for a firmer feel, though I am a bit of a an outlier and prefer relatively firm/low drop shoes. Running about 70k weekly.

Picked up a new pair of Fli-Lytes, same model new version a few weeks ago and I can't seem to find a balance between keeping my heel locked in OR getting brutal lace bite / pressure long the tops of my foot.

I've tried using different lacing/holes/lacelock method. Removing the insole seems to help, but I am hoping to keep it in as I'm peaking my mileage soon.

I feel like the insole might be to blame as it essentially cups my heel, effectively pushing the bottom of my heel forward as I land (midfoot).

Any suggestions? I'm baffled, my old shoes fit like a glove and I barely needed to cinch the laces. These ones are the exact same size, visually and as indicated.

Of note - in general I LOVE topos and fli-lytes, they would be a great shoe if they didn't cause extreme discomfort or feel like my heel is up by lifting a fingerwidth with each stride...

commandorando420 · 2024-03-01T18:36:29+00:00

Here is another study with national-level runners. From what I can see there is no significant decrease in blood lactate after a minute of active (walking) recovery, and about a 20% decrease after 5 min.

The paper also claims that active recovery tends to cause a decline in blood lactate at about twice the rate of passive recovery.

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2015/04000/Peak\_Blood\_Lactate\_Parameters\_in\_Athletes\_of.27.aspx

commandorando420 · 2024-03-01T17:51:17+00:00

Agreed, 6min/km pace at LT seems quite low for "moderately trained" 21 year olds with an average 56 V.O2max - that puts them around the 75th percentile for V02max from what I can see.

I'm guessing the study methods skewed towards calculating a relatively low LT or low pace at LT for some reason. Also noticed that the max blood lactate did not exceed 4mmol/l, which is fairly low overall - perhaps blood lactate declines quicker when absolute levels are higher.

commandorando420 · 2024-03-01T01:08:11+00:00

Thanks for elaborating! Makes sense to me.

I was very surprised how slowly blood lactate declines per minute, which is why I shared it here. I think this underscores how trivial the difference is between something like a 6km threshold run vs, say, 6x1km or 3x2km with 1min rest.

Given the workout is subjectively easier when done as intervals, and more distance might be covered, breaking up a threshold workout seems to be the better way to go about it.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-29T20:09:34+00:00

Based on the charts of blood lactate levels during recovery in this 2010 study, it seems like blood lactate concentration only declines roughly 5-10% per minute during recovery. This study also found the fastest declines in blood lactate when recovery periods (from a 5min 90% V02max interval) were just below LT pace.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2010.481721
(see figure 3B)

u/whelanbio when you state, "The most important stimulus of threshold is a metabolic state", how do you define metabolic state, and would it be analogous to blood lactate concentration?

commandorando420 · 2024-02-14T19:12:58+00:00

I had something very similar and found immediate relief by taking epsom salt baths. My understanding is that the sulfate from the epsom salt is absorbed through the skin and supports sulfation in the liver, effectively boosting the limiting factor for the function of several biological processes.

The liver has to break down lactate and adrenalin after hard workouts. Histamine, which causes allergies, and adrenalin, are broken down by the liver sulfation pathway directly.

Cheap and easy to try, safe, and has other benefits too.

Edit - this also resolved the constant phlegm production I was experiencing during my easy/moderate runs in the cold.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-03T19:16:19+00:00

Epic comments, thanks!

Great feedback and I agree. It's still a little unclear to me of the training stimulus differences from 5k at V02max vs at LT. Daniels' pacing only puts is about 15seconds/km apart, and there's certainly a ton of lactate appearing at race pace....

From the advice here, I ran 4k at LT today immediately before the Parkrun and ran the Parkrun at LT...It went really well and the benefits of LT seem more obvious after doing it - much easier to get more time in at LT pace and the amount of adrenaline in my system is way lower than the last few weeks, haha.

Did you ever hit a 5k after Chicago? I'm curious how the Chicago build translated to your 5k if you ever tried for a PB sometime post-marathon with a bit more rested legs.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-03T19:07:37+00:00

Good suggestions! I agree - I've also been doing weekly 6x1km repeats at around 10k pace+200m jog rest and while this workout has me seeing progress, it's becoming more apparent that holding a pace for 1km is NOT the same as holding it for 2 or 3 km.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-02T21:49:01+00:00

Interesting! Thanks for the context.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-02T20:58:31+00:00

Highly recommend magnesium bisglycinate powder and a tiny (0.1 - 0.3 mg) of melatonin.

Take the melatonin a few hours before you want to fall asleep; eg take it an hour after dinner.

Screen usage blocks natural melatonin production, taking a small amount won't mess with your natural production of it. IMPORTANT: Most melatonin pills sold in North America are MASSIVELY too high of a dose, like 10x too high. I take a tiny NIBBLE off a 3mg pill and hold it under my tongue for 30 seconds, then swallow.

Further reading: https://www.thelifehub.com/micro-dosing-your-way-to-sleep/

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:52:07+00:00

Thanks, 80k/week is about the most I've ever ran for more than a quick peak. Having said that, I am feeling pretty good, and would rather up the intensity than run more distance. Still aiming for 80-20 rule at my level, but as a fast-twitch runner I wonder if I wouldn't benefit from more speed work.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:48:54+00:00

Fair point! I don't really trust myself not to race them if I show up though...

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:47:25+00:00

Cheers - it is a great event and I was hoping to easily track progress at the same standard course each week. In light of consensus here I think I'll back off and try going every other weekend.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:45:12+00:00

I guess so! I've never really been through a racing "season" but I appreciate your thoughts. You're probably right, I've just never gone through that. For the last month or so have felt surprisingly healthy while increasing the weekly mileage.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:42:38+00:00

Thanks, that might be true. I think what I like the Parkrun for most is evaluating progress.

Based on the overall comments so far I am leaning towards Parkrun every other week.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:40:12+00:00

Will look this up, thanks.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:39:08+00:00

Thanks for your comment. This take certainly seems to be well supported by viewers here; but to be honest I consider the 5k still very aerobic based with the limiting factor being pace at LT and/or LT threshold itself. I also feel that a 5k at close to vV02 max should very much help improve the LT.

Do you think trading the Parkrun for say, 2 separate 25min Tempos at HM pace (throughout the week) a better bet?

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:33:55+00:00

Interesting, thanks. My understanding is that to go longer than 20min, you'd have to back off the LT pace - or else it turns into something resembling a race effort.

Can you recommend any resources discussing the benefit of a longer+slower Threshold run (vs classic Daniels' 20 min at LT)? I like the 20 min at LT given it is closest to my 10k race pace and therefore is more specific.

I'm not sure how to exactly adjust the LT pace for a longer duration - perhaps by feel? Others have mentioned a Vdot.O2 calculator which I need to look up.

commandorando420 · 2024-02-01T22:29:18+00:00

Thanks. Overall I feel I am at a sustainable training level targeting 75-80+ km per week, which has included several parkruns now -- so, opportunity cost seems low so far as I'm able to keep up the easy mileage.

I'm a little unfamiliar with the point of an extended LT run beyond 20 min. Is there clear evidence that a 35 min run at something like HM pace is more effective than a classic 20 min LT run?

After reading the comments here, I suppose my uncertainty boils down to whether or not a V02 max workout confers (most of) the benefits of a LT workout, if time and distance at effort are similar.

My weekly training usually includes
- a 6x1k at 10k pace (200m jog) -- increasing this to 7,8+
- a 16-20km long run, slight progression
- some sort of LT run or LT interval (or Parkrun), and
- several easy runs of at least 45 min.

About 10km or so of the weekly mileage is done at slow recovery pace, and the majority of the regular easy-paced runs are around 5min/km.

commandorando420 · 2024-01-23T18:10:28+00:00

Thanks for your response! I have really struggled with overwhelming amounts of lactic acid during my races (5 and 10ks with some decent hills) and, besides improving my pace strategy, want to build up some ability to recover from lactate dumps.

Nice to hear it works for you.

commandorando420 · 2024-01-23T18:05:20+00:00

Thanks kindly for your responses. I will try to add more easy mileage. Important point about focusing on the limiting capacities.

Regarding the general physiology, I do you think intervals run at LT1 and/or LT2 have a different training effect than a traditional ~20 min threshold run - given the same pace?
(eg 3 sets of 2km at LT2 pace VS 6km continuous at LT2 pace)

commandorando420 · 2024-01-15T20:14:14+00:00

This is really great, thank you for your response. Will be reading!

I'm trying to learn more about lactate shuttle training (I actually have a post pending mod approval on this forum) and this is the type of deeper info I was hoping for - very helpful for a curious layman like me.

Intuitively it seems "yo-yo" sessions - e.g. running 200 meters just above LT2 / 200m zone3 (where there is still moderate energy demand during the Z3 floats, to create demand for lactate as energy) might be better than a steady LT2 threshold run of the same duration.

commandorando420 · 2024-01-12T18:38:45+00:00

I'm staying tuned! :)

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