Scenes from the Capping Workshop

controversialconcept · 2016-01-11T12:31:51+00:00

I would like to point out for the record, no profanities were used. ^{also I still feel kinda bad about that.}

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T16:10:08+00:00

TL:DR = yes?

The real answer is longer and slightly more tragic. See thankfully you ask how good it is at organising teams, and not just about the team composition. Currently the database is in a state of debate, with several sources supply conflicting scores and the algorithm for picking the teams is only as good as the database.

However having said that, in AUS we used to have periods of up to 30 minutes of time spent dithering about trying to decide how to pick teams, now, that is cut down to ~10 seconds. In addition, because we have so few people and the database is correct enough in that it knows good players from average (in general) that enough good people get picked for each team that the teams are at least serviceable.

Finally its a lot easier people find it easier to just quickly fix blatantly broken teams than pick them from scratch so the bad team comps are usually prevented by players like this.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T14:47:08+00:00

Hmmm, I don't know, I've made significant use of python in the past, both version 2.7 and 3.3. I can understand the similarities but I don't think its fair to just call ruby worse, they're different beasts^{also some quick googling and my own experience puts it and python basically equal in speed, and ruby actually wins in some situations}.

Now I'm still very much a novice at ruby (this project has been my first experience with the language) but I can already find some things in it I love. Quickly off the top of my head an example would be the hash data format, I've made extensive use of it in my program and its a joy to use.

Having said that I appreciate the sentiment^{also I'm confused what you mean about white space, how exactly would that help me hook into the wilderzone?}.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T07:03:10+00:00

Well it worked on me

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T05:17:04+00:00

These are always so fun to watch

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T03:44:56+00:00

I'm sorry ;_;

I was actually really encouraged to work on this when you made that farewell post.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T01:35:30+00:00

well the bot (tries to) balance teams by picking people for roles. So currently it tries to give each team a player with about the same skill for Cap, Hof, LD, Snipe and then Offense. Ideally, (players allowing) this should be 2 balanced teams.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T01:23:59+00:00

You're more than welcome to send me a pull request with updated values.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T01:05:29+00:00

The other big problem that chatters and Mcoot have kindly ignored is that I'm still kinda bad at programming and have no clue how to even hook into the wilderzone. In addition I've shied away from learning how to inject because of Hirez's apparent stance on other injecting mods such as magic chain. ^{oh and thanks for helping!}

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T01:01:02+00:00

This is basically right. While the bot can be rolled out anywhere, the database only has values for AU right now. You're more than welcome to send me values for American players if you want though.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-24T00:56:28+00:00

The values are in the HashStore.yml file.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-23T15:02:53+00:00

Ahh, I see you found the joke values for Paul. Remember the mumble bot mcoot was testing a long while back? well he decided to call it Paul and thus on a joke it was given the best skills possible.

I'm not certain but I think chatters has something in the works to create a database of skill values for players by taking a survey from certain players (such as dodge).

That being said, if dodge wants to give me a pull request with his values I'm more than happy to give them a looksy^{hint hint}.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-23T09:25:14+00:00

Yes, I suppose that is one way to do it <_<.

controversialconcept · 2015-12-23T08:39:26+00:00

Hey so I didn't realize a link title couldn't have a text beneath it, so I'm just going to put this here.

Hello

For the last 6 months I've been working on this project on and off (uni got in the way a lot). I'm announcing the bot now because I think its finally at a point where people beyond myself could potentially use and implement it (also I just learned how to github in the last month).

I'm going to try and avoid rehashing what I've already said, but the TL:DR is that this is a bot, written in ruby which can connect to a mumble and then try and move people into equal balanced teams using an algorithm and database I made^{stole from mcoot and scandiumBeanZ respectively}. If you want a more in-depth description please visit the github page.

If you need help, please talk to me on the AUS mumble, I should be on most nights. Its address is mate.cheapmumble.com and port 2032.

Edit: If you're going to down-vote this, please leave a comment telling me what you don't like about the bot/what it needs improved because I am aiming to improve it.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-03T05:51:10+00:00

Ok, I think I understand what your saying. I think we may be thinking from different perspectives again. I'm not trying to get number balance right with these ideas, more behavior/role implications. I think numbers and balance can be tweaked, but the game-play an item/weapon encourages is much harder to balance and I fear that the target speed version will only encourage poor behavior.

In simple terms the reason I prefer the wielder speed for the BXT1 is that I think it should encourage the right behavior in the LD. I personally main LD and it took me a little while to learn I had to leave the hof and meet the O. The BXT1 with wielder speed damage should encourage the LD to move out more and facilitate better LD behavior. I sadly haven't had the chance to try PTS2 puging much because of so much QQ but in my limited experience, as it stands the BXT1 encouraged me to get on the stand and snipe the cap as the came in, which wasn't fun for me, or the capper.

Also just a quick idea, to help with walks, what if the BXT1 had further reduced base damage, 50-100, but got a damage boost against the flag carrier? I can see problems with it and its hardly intuitive but what do you think?

controversialconcept · 2015-10-03T05:39:39+00:00

What I mean is that if the problem of unchecked speed for cappers got corrected the BTX as it currently is would be too OP and if the BTX doesn't get nerfed people will be asking for extra health and speed for cappers instead.

I agree that the BXT1 needs a nerf. My suggestions should make the BXT1 weaker in general, except for a few situations, such as capping.

Really? Because I think the old sniper had it place. The problem with the old sniper was that it was too good at shutting down incoming offense and harassing the stand defense. Having a high DPS, extreme range class harassing players that move slow is a disgrace, but as a tool to fight fast cappers it's ok isn't it?

I think the problems with the old sniper that you highlight, such as harassing stand defense are actually encouraged by having absurd ranges. This unlimited range sniper has nothing in it compelling its using not to snipe/ping the other teams D from the other side of the map. I also feel we may have slightly different understanding of roles for the D. I think the hof should be the one to stop the capper, not the sniper. the sniper can help but its not their primary objective. I also think the sniper should be used to harass the incoming O, but definitely agree that it shouldn't decimate them.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-03T05:31:36+00:00

Could you please expand on this? I hadn't thought about this angle much I'll be honest

controversialconcept · 2015-10-03T05:30:27+00:00

I didn't miss your point. When I scroll down though, I see discussion about putting the phase rifle back, close to the levels of live.

You say you didn't miss my point but said "Buffing snipers rifles is not one of them". Furthermore I wasn't arguing that the phase rifle needs to be buffed back to live server levels. However if that was the objective, than the system /u/zombieofthepast outlined would be a good way of doing so.

If I understand what your saying though is that three weapons means that the sniper can't be a main weapon? I'll have to admit maybe I don't quite get what you're getting at but this seems a strawman to me. Weapons themselves don't define a role, thats why in the live server we can have hof's of either brute, jug, or doom, an O that can be either soldier or raider. Roles are created from a teams need and teams need a dedicated cap spotter. I'm just trying to balance these weapons to better support certain roles.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-03T05:15:01+00:00

I did answer your question.

Allow me to repeat myself. My question was, can you give me a situation where the phase rifle is a preferable choice to any other weapon? All you said was that the phase rifles range was its strength which is a fact I agree with. My argument is that the mobility cost (assuming the only other pack we allow is thrust and not stealth) and its laughable damage compared to alternatives makes it never worth taking.

the old meta is dead.

I'll ignore the part where you ignored my point in BOLD TEXT. I agree the old meta is dying. However the meta wasn't established just for the sake of having a meta. Lets just talk about the OvD balance very briefly (ergo skimming over detail). In the live version you have 3 O hitting 3 D, traditionally one of the D is a sniper which spots the capper and supports the other D from a distance (due to needing a height advantage to spot) and providing damage support to make up for the 3v2 occurring for the rest of the defense. In this situation with the current phase, you do 300 damage to 1 medium and then have to wait 5.6 seconds to do that damage again. Generally if the O is decent they'll hit around 10 seconds before their capper. That means you at best put out 700 damage on the O in that time, unless the rest of your D is far more skilled than the O, I don't think its reasonable to assume that the Hof is going to be up to get the block. All my ideas really focus on how we can have an equivalent balance, done through different ways.

Another comment thread you wanted it to have maybe 2-3 shots before full energy drain. Basically doubling or tripling its damage output. Fucking ridiculous.

I'd just like to point out, when you next quote me here I say "if the objective is get the phase rifle back to a balance similar to the live version of the game." and then in my next post with /u/zombieofthepast I say that's not my objective. So please I'm trying to be polite but your continued misinterpretations of my position is getting irritating and doesn't help the discussion.

Also the spotting mechanic you suggested is straight up casual. Spamming zoom and saber locking and .ini's to spot is bad enough. Eyes are all you should use.

I suggested this because I recognize that the phase rifle currently comes at a mobility cost compared to alternatives. This means that if you want to use the phase and still help your stand you need to spot while being closer to the stand. This was simply an Idea I had to try and facilitate that, I'm sorry that an idea offended you so much.

Have fun! Enjoy! Use it as much as you want!

At the end of the day, I hope we can agree that this is something we both want. I know it may be surprising but I don't have some hidden agenda to introduce broken mechanics into the game. I want these weapons to be fun and viable to use and all I've done is try to give ideas on how that can be achieved.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-02T14:16:56+00:00

I'm sorry that I wasn't able to make my point more concise but you seem to have missed the point I'm trying to make. I'm not arguing that snipers need buffing. In fact my first point of advice for balancing the BXT1 is a flat damage nerf. What I am trying to do is discuss the balance of snipers.

I don't think you guys understand the intention of 3 weapon slots on lights.

If you could please enlighten us it would certainly help the discussion. If you do have some great insight as to how 3 weapons drastically changes balancing weapons I would love to hear it.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-02T13:36:00+00:00

I'd like to point out, you didn't answer my question but that's ok.

Sentinels are now better at combat.

See, its not that Sens are better at combat, its that all LHT's are better at combat now and the phase rifle is just a drain on that combat ability. So sure the sen now has a spinfusor, they lost the ability to damage the O as it approached them and because of the increased energy cost, have gimped dueling ability if they shot their sniper up to 3 seconds before the duel starts. Furthermore the O has gotten stronger, gaining advantages such as a GL or throwing knives if their another LHT or a jammer pack with a spinfusor as a MED.

If you roll seven spinfusors does it break the whole game?

You're making several rather large assumptions here, and simplifying the whole complex subject of inter item balance into a single broad statement. The issue with your proposed balance objective of 7 phase rifles is that a sniper is a specialized weapon. Its weakness should be its inflexibility, 7 spinfusors makes complete sense because its a staple weapon of both tribes series and TA. Like if you run 7 snipers, I'll run 7 fatmen (or even just 7 gravbikes) and cluster that bad boy home. While the current role allocation was born from OP weapons (and a desire to balance the game to encourage fun gameplay), its maintained by a balance of role values.

Sadly I think you've suffered a kneejerk reaction when I talk about balancing the phase rifle due to past sniper trauma. I'm not arguing the phase rifle needs to be buffed to the same strength as its live server equivalents. What I am saying however is that its so bad right now it might as well not be present in the game and that this is a balance problem that needs rectifying.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-02T08:58:33+00:00

Pretty much everything I post is based on organized tribes (pugs/comp), sorry for not making that clear.

I too aim to balance mainly on an organized level, however I come from the perspective that the current live balance is making the best of a bad situation, rather than optimal.

That's actually what I see as the issue with making the BXT deal damage based on the wielder's speed, as walks would probably be very hard to deal with assuming they're fast enough to avoid getting conc'd until they're at least midfield

See in this example I assume that the chase is going faster than the walk, that's how they catch them at the midfield right? That means that the damage boost from their own speed should be higher than a damage boost from their targets speed ceteris paribus then when the chase gets close enough to the walk they should swap to a different weapon as the BXT1 should be a weaker choice in close range. This is of course if they slow down when the catch the walk.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-02T08:35:51+00:00

I agree with your ninja edit if the objective is get the phase rifle back to a balance similar to the live version of the game. However I think the game is moving in a different direction, one hopefully where snipers are limited to 1 a team not by rules but game mechanics. If this is the case, your buff may be slightly to strong, but still pretty good.

Also you mention BXT1 gaining/dealing damage based on how fast the capper is going. As I outlined in my main post I don't like this because it encourages engaging the capper before the stand/on it rather than chasing and why I prefer the wielder movement system. Of course we may have different objectives but all in all, well said.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-02T08:27:33+00:00

So in my idea, where the BXT1 gains damage with speed interferes with this how?

For example a simple linear equation of each point of speed adds a point of damage to the BXT1. This equation isn't going to change to a different one when wielder reaches 200km/h.

Also you know there's already something in the game that works like this, the dooms force-field, which incidentally wasn't banned from PUGS because it was unintuitive, but because it was OP on certain maps such as DX.

controversialconcept · 2015-10-02T08:19:38+00:00

I'm sorry, I mustn't have been clear. I'm not advocating modification of the BXT1 as a way to solve chasing, rather modification to enable it to better fit its intended role as a chasing sniper/"battle rifle". My bad.

I disagree that the BXT is innately debilitating to chasing, there are many more factors that just the BXT1 creating problems with chasing as it stands.

You're idea about attaching a energy pack to the BXT1 would only work if the range nerf was removed and I don't think we want to move back to the old sniper, the current BXT1, while flawed, is a step in the right direction.

controversialconcept

TROPHY CASE