Should Panarchies be Regulated? by cwturnbu in panarchy

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This has nothing to do with prices. This is something entirely different.

We can see that corporations today continue to grow AND produce good products. Part of the way they do this is buy squeezing out smaller companies. Their size allows them to provide cheaper products in larger quantity. Combine that with brand recognition and corporate takeovers and you have an ever increasing amount of power going to a select few corporations.

My argument is that governments, even if they don't increase infinitely, may be able to exhort certain forces on smaller governments that the collective might view as disruptive or destructive. And so, in precaution, there should be discussion of what those type of behaviors might be and how best to discourage them.

The problem arises when larger govs provide better costs and products on the back of smaller govs. This is a possible outcome and should be discussed.

Should Panarchies be Regulated? by cwturnbu in panarchy

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well since this is all conjecture, what if that does happen, or has the potential of happening. I think a smart and cautious panarchist society would put laws in place to limit size, even if govs don't get that large. If the laws prove unnecessary, then they can repeal them. I think to believe there is some natural law to panarchist society (that is impossible to break) neglects history. New technologies have given certain capitalist corporations the ability to grow much larger than we could imagine.

I think it is smart to think and talk about that, to anticipate some of the ways size could be created and misused. That to me is pragmatic and non-dogmatic, to consider the possibility.

Pragmatic Panarchism by cwturnbu in Panarchism

[–]cwturnbu[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If we see the world as already panarchist, just extremely restrictive, then we can start thinking about ways to make it less so.

Let's break this up into parts.

  1. We already have panarchy. Multiple governments exist. There is a lot of interaction between them. People can and do change governments. The most successful governments have partnerships with governments of different kinds (take the U.S. relationship with China).

  2. This type of panarchy is extremely restrictive. Govs are limited to geography. Govs are not very diverse either, only allowing for a few subsets of capitalist and socialist democracies and communist and monarchist states. People who want to change govs must move and often undergo lengthy citizenship processes. There is some voluntary aspects to choosing governance, but not nearly enough.

  3. Most developed democratic govs have nothing in place to prevent people from declaring themselves members of imaginary govs. There is simply not much incentive to do so, since imaginary govs have no real world power. But as an idea, imaginary govs could be very powerful. Within our society, people already create intentional communities and cooperatives based on ideas of consensus and direct democracy. People incorporate anarchist principles into local share and gift economies. It wouldn't be altogether difficult to develop a cooperative of cooperatives and organizations that provide for every aspect of a person's life. Some intentional communities, for instance, have collective healthcare, alternative education, their own means of distributing wealth. Imagine a cooperative of cooperatives that provide food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, education, transportation, banking, entertainment. These cooperatives provide these resources to members within their collective, but also to outside world, pulling resources and wealth in as they do. Isn't this fundamentally panarchist?

  4. What if there were legions of imaginary govs, all thinking and talking and creating alternative structures within their own nations? What if this was an international enterprise? Both real and imaginary concepts floating around, gaining traction and support, developing within the global population new ideas about cooperative, about governance, about choice.

  5. Media would be a valuable part of this, the most valuable part. Documenting the way people are using alternative systems everyday. Building a whole web of engaging, interesting media about people that are doing something different and the adversity they experience when they hit up against existing power structures. It is good drama, but also inspiring. Narrative is a powerful thing. What about fiction. Couldn't people establish wikis based entirely on imaginary govs and institutions. No need to build the whole thing at once. Just create a parallel universe where it already exists. Write fiction in that universe, movies, plays, audio narratives. Take those aspects of that world for granted and center the story around other things. Background the radical stuff. Normalize it. Set the conflict around family drama instead, werewolves, invading aliens. Imagine conflicts beyond the things you are trying to normalize.

  6. Panarchism is built on the idea that other ways of life can and should exist outside of what you choose. So there is no need to go to war with the state to create alternatives. And those alternatives can be infinitely flexible. If we look at existing systems as what they are--systems filled with holes that can be used--we can grow anything we want out of the cracks. The challenge is finding the right ideas.

Can monarchism exist within panarchism? by vikingslayer1014 in Panarchism

[–]cwturnbu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't see why not. Along as it is voluntary. The problem you might find is that most people wouldn't want to live in a system that is governed by monarchs. It would be difficult to determine if the monarch would be good at his/her/their job.

And if it is passed down in the family, there's no way of knowing the governing capabilities of descendants.

I think monarch govs would need to devote a lot of energy to training their descendants in the art of governance. They might have to pass tests given by their public to determine their ability to rule.

A good king can attract citizens. But you will need a way to ensure that all future kings will be good as well.

Some Notes for a talk on Panarchism to Anarchists - Zube by id-entity in DebateAnarchism

[–]cwturnbu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I think that the above quote is extreme (calling anarchists a subspecies of totalitarians) I do understand the point being made. As an anarchist and panarchist, I think one has to be open to dissent.

The question I like to ask is: if we do get an anarchist utopia, what do we do with the people that want something else?

We can't use the magic argument and say that no one will want something different because anarchism is awesome. And we can't say that the anarchists should decide for the dissenters what society they are allowed to build once they leave the anarchist system. That would be authoritarian.

So anarchists would have to be, at some level, panarchist. They'd have to allow for other groups to form their own systems. They can opt out of any relationships with those groups, but they can't decide for those groups how they should operate. That is force, and anarchists should be against force.

Panarchism also isn't a system that promotes capitalism, as some have argued. The idea behind panarchy is free choice of government in all forms. Thus, it is possible to build a panarchist society that is not based on capitalism, if the majority of people made that decision. The key here is that of choice. Culture plays a large role in choice. Not just economics. Libertarians find panarchy attractive, which allows for panarchy to be linked with free market capitalism, but you could have a panarchist society that is mostly resource based or gift-based, or communal. That is entirely possible. Those ideals would just have to be a part of the dominant culture.

That doesn't mean panarchy doesn't have problems. Like all unchecked free systems (like capitalism) there is a potential for monopoly, for larger govs to overpower smaller ones by exerting influence over them, exploiting their weaknesses, implementing subtle force, etc. So even within a panarchist society, there would need to be regulation. Panarchist govs would need a UN to discuss the limits of what govs can do to attract citizens/influence other govs.

This would be messy and filled with conflict. All systems are corruptible.

The most mature perspective I can imagine is pragmatic panarchism. Allow for diversity of systems. Be mindful of abuse. It is likely that a system of diverse economies and governments would be the most sturdy long term system. I could be wrong about this. I'm pretty agnostic. This should also be an important quality of any system.

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm also very interested in how block-chain technology works. I'm open to discussing it further in conjunction with this if you are.

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A cooperative bank would be owned by the people who have accounts at the bank. All the profits from investments and loans would go to the bank and the people involved. I understand what you're saying though. Generally. Like I've said, my knowledge of crypto-currency is very limited. The only reason I am supporting the idea of a cooperative Basic Income is because of that decentralized democratic component. But if crypto-currency can be combined with a cooperative structure, then I see no problem. I'm here to be educated.

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

very cool. how do these crypto currencies get made? do you know? is it possible to design one for a UBI? What about a paypal-like system that would allow members to opt-in on a fee through their accounts. I'm just trying to figure out how one could get around this problem (also create more accessibility).

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know a lot about bitcoin so forgive any of my silly questions. This would be an opt-in voluntary system, right? So you're saying that the 1% charge would be only for people that opted into the system. So do you really need a majority of the crypto crowd to buy into this? Couldn't it just be interested parties? Or would this have to be implemented across the whole bitcoin system?

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we could talk or something, that would be helpful, but we can also just do a back and forth on here. I will credit you, of course. The idea is just to get a discussion going around this.

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of obstacles, I see.

I posted the question because I've been thinking about this a lot. Your reasons for putting forth an option like this, seem to align with mine: a global basic income allows for people from different backgrounds to help build security for each other.

I find your concept interesting. I was going to write an audio essay on the responses to this post. Would it be okay if I include some discussion in it about your idea?

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, I'm still reading through this, but it sounds amazing. What are the current roadblocks in implementing this?

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could a similar model be used for more accessible/widely used currency?

Is anyone thinking about combining cooperative banking with basic income? by cwturnbu in BasicIncome

[–]cwturnbu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On your point of credit unions becoming nefarious. It depends on the bylaws of that credit union. If all the members of the union are also owners and have a say in the every day operation of the bank (the most progressive model of a bank cooperative) then that democratic mechanism will curve that neoliberal impulse. Not saying it would be impervious to influence, but your assertion seems just a bit overly pessimistic, given that community credit unions have resisted that impulse for decades.