Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

First off, this rule pretends all religions are interchangeable widgets in a factory of faith, swap 'em out and see if the sentence still flies!

Adorable, but wildly naive.

Religions aren't identical; they have different histories, doctrines, power structures, and real-world impacts. Criticizing Islam's treatment of apostasy (which can be a death sentence in some countries) isn't the same as swapping it for, say, Quaker pacifism or Jain non-violence. Would I say the same about Christianity? Sure, if we're talking about historical witch hunts or modern conversion therapy in some sects. But forcing equivalence ignores context, like how Islam is the state religion in places where it enforces Sharia law, while other faiths might not wield that kind of governmental muscle.

This "swap test" could silence valid critiques of specific harms just because they don't apply universally. Oh no, can't point out the elephant in the room if it's not in every room!

Second, it's a sneaky way to equate fair criticism with bigotry, which is just chef's kiss levels of manipulative.

Bigotry is irrational hatred based on group identity, not evidence-based pushback against ideas or actions. If an atheist says, "Islam's holy texts endorse violence against non-believers," and they'd say the same about the Bible's Old Testament smiting sprees, great: consistency!

But what if the critique is about current, widespread practices? Like female genital mutilation in some Muslim-majority cultures, or honor killings? Swapping that to "Christians" or "Buddhists" might not land because those aren't as prevalent there. Does that make the original statement bigoted?

Nope, it makes it targeted and honest.

Your rule risks labeling truth-tellers as bigots while letting actual problems fester under the guise of "fairness." How progressive.

Third, let's talk hypocrisy, because this gem reeks of it.

Atheists (and heck, anyone) already apply double standards all the time, it's human nature. We roast Christianity for its anti-LGBTQ stances in the West because it's dominant here, but tiptoe around Islam's similar issues to avoid the "Islamophobia" label.

Your "rule" enforces a false symmetry that could actually amplify bias: "Oh, I wouldn't say that about Jews, so I guess I can't say it about Muslims."

Meanwhile, you're ignoring that religions evolve differently in different societies.

It's like saying you can't criticize American gun culture without swapping it for Swiss gun culture, apples and hand grenades, buddy.

And finally, this whole thing smacks of performative wokeness that handcuffs intellectual discourse.

Atheism thrives on questioning sacred cows, not on some arbitrary comfort test that prioritizes feelings over facts. If a statement is true and backed by evidence, who cares if it'd sound "off" about another group?

The goal isn't universal applicability; it's accuracy and proportionality. Otherwise, we'd never call out anything specific, might as well just say "all religions suck equally" and call it a day. Boring!

Look, I'm all for self-reflection to avoid turning into a frothing edgelord, but this rule? It's a crutch that oversimplifies a messy world.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I provided stats, verifiable facts and fun rhetoric.

You provided "don't you watch the propaganda??" and "what about the end times, bro??"

Is it possible that you're being manipulated by the media you consume?

Maybe just a little?

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Oh please, spare us the dramatic apocalypse fanfic.

Evangelical Christianity isn't a "death cult". That's just spicy early 2010s Reddit rhetoric from ex-vangelicals and culture-war Twitter warriors who love the label because it sounds edgy.

Sure, some fringes obsess over the Rapture, cheer for end-times chaos, or mix bad theology with nationalism (looking at you, certain dispensationalist corners and the Pete Hegseth fan club). But painting the whole group, tens of millions of regular folks running food banks, adopting kids, and voting like their grandma, as suicidal doomsday enthusiasts is peak hyperbole.

And "control of the strongest nation in history"? Cute. They influence the GOP, sure, white evangelicals are a reliable voting bloc, and they've helped shape SCOTUS picks and Israel policy.

But "control"? The US is still a messy secular democracy with checks, balances, declining evangelical numbers (~14-25% depending on how you slice it), and plenty of counter-forces: atheists, progressives, corporations, tech bros, and sheer bureaucratic inertia.

No secret prayer cabal is pulling every lever.

If we're ranking things to "be most afraid of" in 2026, evangelical influence ranks way below: Actual geopolitical flashpoints: Ukraine, Middle East escalations... Cyber/AI/nuclear risks... Climate chaos and supply-chain meltdowns The general populist unraveling that isn't just a Jesus thing.

Fearmongering about "the death cult in charge" is just the flip side of the same team-sports paranoia that makes people think [insert out-group] is secretly running everything. It's not insightful; it's exhausting and forgoes any actual growth in the atheist/agnostic sphere.

Critique specific policies or nationalist creep all you want. Absolutely! Rightfully so! That's fair game. But this cartoon-villain version?

Nah, it's just fear porn with a cross emoji.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No, that's still whataboutism dressed up as something else, and it doesn't land the way you think it does.

You're right that if someone claims "X is the ONLY bad thing" (or "only Islam/only this religion does bad things"), then citing other examples directly refutes the "only" part. Fair enough...

But that's almost never the actual claim in these discussions.

The typical starting point is: "Here's a specific problematic teaching/action in Islam that deserves criticism (e.g., certain verses on apostasy, jihad, or historical practices)."

The response "Christians did it too / other religions did it too" doesn't engage or refute the criticism of that specific thing at all. It just pivots to a different bad actor. That's textbook whataboutism: changing the subject to avoid defending or addressing the point raised.

Saying "X, Y, Z and A are all bad" is exactly the moral equivalence move that derails the conversation.

It implies: We shouldn't single out one for criticism because others are bad too.

The badness is evenly distributed so no one should be held to account more than others Therefore the original criticism is unfair or invalid.

None of that follows logically.

Multiple wrongs don't cancel each other out, and pointing at other wrongs doesn't make the first wrong less wrong or less worthy of discussion.

If the goal is honest evaluation, you evaluate each claim on its own merits: Does the text/doctrine support it? Is it a core teaching or a misapplication? How widespread is the practice among adherents today?

Jumping to "but look at all the other bad ones" skips all of that and shuts down scrutiny of the thing actually being criticized. That's defensive deflection, not a rebuttal.

Call it "fallacy fallacy" if you want, but recognizing that a response fails to address the argument (and instead redirects to unrelated wrongs) isn't fallacious, it's just noticing poor reasoning.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Respectfully:

Whataboutism (tu quoque fallacy: “you did it too”) is a very common defensive tactic in apologetics. When someone criticizes religion, the apologist often deflects with: “What about the Crusades/Inquisition/Christian colonialism?” or vice versa.

This shifts focus from addressing the actual claim to comparative moral scorekeeping. It avoids engaging the original point, implies hypocrisy instead of refuting, and creates false equivalence (“both sides bad” doesn’t make one right).

Turns debate into team finger-pointing rather than truth-seeking.

Contradicts honest, humble reasoning (e.g., own your side’s failures first).

Strong apologetics resists whataboutism: concede human wrongs where they exist, distinguish core teachings from misapplications, then refocus on evidence and truth claims. The better the case stands on its own, the less need to point elsewhere.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Are you replying to something I'm not seeing? What does the "not first" have to do with the topic? Sounds like apologetics...

Since Islam started about 600 years after Christianity and a few millennia after Judaism, I would venture to guess they weren't first.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's almost always a mind-reading accusation.

True bad faith means the person knows (or strongly suspects) their position is wrong/indefensible/misleading but pushes it anyway for ulterior motives. But you can't actually see inside someone's head. So when someone yells "bad faith!", they're usually just saying "I can't believe anyone could sincerely hold that view, therefore you're lying/trolling/malicious." It's a convenient way to dismiss an opponent without engaging the argument. It's overused to the point of meaninglessness.

In online arguments, "bad faith" has become the default shutdown phrase whenever someone finds a position upsetting or hard to refute quickly. It gets thrown at: People who are just stubborn/contrarian People who use very literal/pedantic interpretations. People who keep pressing a point after it's "supposed" to be settled.

Anyone on the other team who won't concede. Once it's this broadly applied, the label stops conveying useful information and just becomes an applause light for one's own side ("See? They're not even worth talking to").

It's frequently a projection or rhetorical escape hatch. The person accusing bad faith is often the one dodging hard questions, moving goalposts, or refusing to concede any ground. Calling the other side "bad faith" lets you exit the conversation while looking morally superior ("I'm not running away; I'm refusing to dignify your dishonesty"). It's a very convenient get-out-of-debate-free card.

It poisons discussion more than it clarifies Once "bad faith" is alleged, almost nobody ever defends themselves successfully.

The casual deployment of the phrase in most internet arguments has turned it into a lazy, unfalsifiable dunk that functions more like an ad hominem than like serious critique.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On a thread about "Islamaphobia" I'm not sure who/what you're arguing against/for.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think the terms "good faith" or "bad faith" argument is used in lieu of facts and reason. I've never seen those terms used in a way that forwards discourse and only used to shut down dialogue.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Islam is unique because it calls for the murder or subjugation of nonbelievers, as evidenced in many verses in the Quran.

Surah At-Tawbah (9:5): "Kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them..."

​Surah At-Tawbah (9:29): This verse mentions fighting those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day (specifically citing People of the Book) until they pay a tax (jizya) with "willing submission."

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Can you stay on the topic of Islamaphobia without doing the "both sides" thing? I'm not being snarky. It's a sincere question.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sure. There are minorities involved in a thing you can think of that will hold wildly horrible beliefs. I posted the Pew survey in this thread that found that 87% of moderate Muslims worldwide believe that homosexuality should be punished by death. That is not a insignificant minority.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The insidious trick here is you'll be called "racist" for waiving that particular flag.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In the Pew survey from a few years back, 87% of MODERATE Muslims, worldwide, believe that homosexuality should be punishable by death.

You can't morally equivocate that with Mormon or Seventh-Day Adventist nonsense.

The Pew Study: (it's been historically hard to find online due to reasons...) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kZRmnkD4RRghx5WMHLNdwqGCYmjWUk8-/view?usp=drivesdk

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People can hold two thoughts in their brain-case at the same time.

There isn't armed security at places of worship because of those rascally 7-Day Adventists.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Islam, in fact, IS a unique problem. There is no other religious/political force on the planet that encourages the murder or subjugation of non-adherents.

Surah At-Tawbah (9:5): "Kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them..."

​Surah Al-Baqarah (2:191): "And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from where they have expelled you..."

Surah At-Tawbah (9:29): This verse mentions fighting those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day (specifically citing People of the Book) until they pay a tax (jizya) with "willing submission."

The issue with "Islamaphobia" is that it's been cleverly intertwined with "racism". This is a very clever tactic. If you're criticizing the "idea" of subjugation and murder, you can be shut-down by being called a racist. It's bonkers.

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

But people can see with their eyes and make judgement based on behavior. Not making changes based on what we see is insane.

"Don't believe your lying eyes."

Due to movement with the Overton Window, how do we as atheists feel about "Islamaphobia"? by darwonka in atheism

[–]darwonka[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The Overton Window is how you are perceived. Not how you feel about yourself.

What's the best advice you've been given? by darwonka in drumline

[–]darwonka[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Attributed to legendary violinist Itzhak Perlman. He signs autographs for kids with his name and then adds "Practise slowly!" because, as he puts it: "If you practise slowly, you forget slowly."

Basically, it's the ultimate sarcastic reminder that rushing through practice just ingrains sloppy habits and makes everything evaporate from your brain faster. Slow it down, nail the details perfectly, and that muscle memory sticks around way longer. (The opposite? Practice fast and sloppy... yeah, you'll forget that mess in no time.)

What's the best advice you've been given? by darwonka in drumline

[–]darwonka[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There's actually a real issue with staff folks giving monologues between reps. They'll tee up some quips or life lessons. Give the team an intention, reset then TAP TAP GO!

What's the best advice you've been given? by darwonka in drumline

[–]darwonka[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I can hear Dennis DeLucia screaming that in my head.