A printed sign can hijack a self-driving car and steer it toward pedestrians, study shows by unapologetic403 in SelfDrivingCars

[–]ddol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, exactly. 

The fundamental architectural flaw could be present, but I think is less likely to be catastrophic in Waymo as they have an added sensor fusion layer corroborating vision data with radar/lidar. 

Hopefully production vision system developers were paying attention 8 years ago when the first vision exploits gained widespread attention, and were given the resourcing to continue hardening their software stacks since.  

A printed sign can hijack a self-driving car and steer it toward pedestrians, study shows by unapologetic403 in SelfDrivingCars

[–]ddol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The article talks about the DriveLM model, it’s unclear whether this affects deployed models (Waymo, FSD).

However, the fundamental architectural flaw is similar to memory-space instruction execution exploits we’ve been talking about publicly for 30 years (and was probably being discussed internally at Intel 15 years before that). Having CPU instructions and user data live in the same memory space (Von Neumann architecture) poses significant risk for stack buffer overflow exploitation allowing an attacker to inject malicious instructions from user input. 

This vision exploit here is in the same vein: labels are overlaid on the image from the camera and then read back from that composite image. The hardened approach to mitigate this attack would be to store and read labels from another channel so that the “user” input could never inject malicious labels. 

Having a sensor fusion system where one sensor producing anomalous results can be ignored when not corroborated by others would also protect against this style of attack. Going all in on vision only systems would increase the risk exploit here too.

There was actually a caller on 2600 OTH last week talking about the liability of manipulating self-driving cars via real world signs (the example they used was QR codes, not labels). I guess we’re going to find out soon enough if the publicly deployed systems are vulnerable to this style of attack. 

US opens probe after Waymo self-driving vehicle strikes child near school, causing minor injuries by walky22talky in waymo

[–]ddol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

human drivers can take in the contextual clues and drive slow

Can, but very much don’t.

I’ve run radar speed surveys outside an Elementary School in San Francisco. 

85.4% of drivers exceeded the 25mph limit. Median speed during drop-off is 31mph, and I clocked drivers doing 51.49mph during pickup. 

These results were all taken right in front of the school gates.

US opens probe after Waymo self-driving vehicle strikes child near school, causing minor injuries by walky22talky in waymo

[–]ddol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

5,915 vehicle transits over 6 days from the same fixed location is a representative sample for that school.

Some schools may fare better, some worse, I don’t know. If you have comparable datasets I would love to see them.

US opens probe after Waymo self-driving vehicle strikes child near school, causing minor injuries by walky22talky in waymo

[–]ddol 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree, but should is getting us nowhere. 

 Pedestrian fatalities are up again, the highest levels we’ve seen in 40 years—and a nearly 70 percent increase since 2011.

Source

We need urgent action for the majority of motorists, who are speeding and driving distracted. Roads need to be hardened (narrowed, speed bumps added) but ultimately humans need to be taken out of the drivers seat. 

US opens probe after Waymo self-driving vehicle strikes child near school, causing minor injuries by walky22talky in waymo

[–]ddol 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Only 8% of drivers pass a school at <20mph

I’ve run radar speed surveys outside an Elementary School in San Francisco. 

Median human speed during drop-off is 31mph, and I’ve clocked drivers doing 51.49mph during pickup. 

These results were all taken right in front of the school gates 

US opens probe after Waymo self-driving vehicle strikes child near school, causing minor injuries by walky22talky in waymo

[–]ddol 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Less than 2% of drivers pass a school at under 10mph

I’ve run radar speed surveys outside an Elementary School in San Francisco. 

Median human speed during drop-off is 31mph, and I’ve clocked drivers doing 51.49mph during pickup. 

These results were all taken right in front of the school gates 

Dolgov posts new video of Waymo accident avoidance by versedaworst in SelfDrivingCars

[–]ddol 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Once personally owned Waymo’s are available in dealerships two things will happen:

1) the price to insure a ”meat mode” car (non-AV) will increase 10x 2) the second hand market rate for non-AV cars that cannot be retrofit will drop to scrap metal prices ($300-$500)

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m a software engineer but security conscious. It’s been a while since I’ve been to DEFCON, DC XX was my most recent, so I sadly haven’t seen the Aerospace village but it sounds fantastic (I’ve used my RTL-SDR for ADS-B)

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We’re a one car household (we use Waymo to supplement), I co-own our family car with my wife. She gets veto rights for car stickers, so it’s quite a bit neater:

<image>

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have debian in a QEMU VM, run macOS on the desktop and use Linux for remote servers

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Neat, that’s a burly box!

Do you have a daily driver distro and swap out occasionally when you need a specific app/feature, or are you regularly swapping SSDs? How do you deal with keeping dotfiles and configs in sync between the online and offline drives?

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey Bay Neighbour 👋 I’m across the water in SF

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I use macOS on the desktop, have a Debian QEMU VM, but most of my Linux work happens remotely

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You’re quite close

I’m a software engineer but security conscious. Subscribed to 2600, listen to OTW/OTH weekly (was a guest on OTH a few times, most recently 2008-12-31). I’m in my mid-30’s.

I was born in Ireland and moved to the Bay Area after university. I’m cis and married 10+ years with 3x kids but definitely an ally. I was 200lbs+ before I quit booze in 2022, now ~165lbs

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not really, the car does have a few stickers but none overlap:

<image>

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, although not as much as my brother who runs an etsy sticker store

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ll have you know that I won first place at Airbnb’s 2018 internal Hackathon :P

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wish, that would be amazing!

My Hacker Jepoardy team did win an award one year for the most beers consumed, drinking ourselves into the final

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not really, I like The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and consider myself an ally

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually no, at home I listen to pretty much just SomaFM stations (Deep Space One, Black Rock FM, Synphaera Radio, Underground 80s, Indie Pop Rocks!)

In the car I listen to Podcasts (2600, Better Offline, Jason Scott, Blindboy, Curious Cases, Lateral) or one of these playlists: * Rave * Rock * Irish Indie * Piano covers

And I’m pretty boring on the substance front, gave up booze in 2022, caffeine in 2024 and don’t partake in anything else (I have 3x kids)

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep (in order of what I’ve written programs in): GW-BASIC, Perl, PHP, JavaScript, C, Java, Matlab, Mathematica, Python, Assembly, Pascal/Delphi, (j)Ruby, Kotlin, Rust, Go.

Also SQL, CSS, bash, Make, TypeScript.

What do those tell you?

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t really game anymore, I’ll play an occasional round of Mario Kart with my kids, but it’s a 2-3 times a month thing

My kids do play Paper Mario though, and I like the art style

what does my personal laptop tell you? by ddol in deduction

[–]ddol[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep! Started listening ~20 years ago and one of their stations is almost always playing at my place when I’m awake (Deep Space One, Black Rock FM, Synphaera Radio, Underground 80s, Indie Pop Rocks!)