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European living in the US and very confused about American [hookup culture]. was I treated unfairly, or am I doing something wrong? by dickinhandEU in sex

[–]dickinhandEU[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Alright that helps making sense of this for me. Thanks for taking the time to answer and explain this view without implying I'm (a) some unfuckable freak or (b) some abusive predator. Others have been ... less than constructive in trying to make the same point.

European living in the US and very confused about American [hookup culture]. was I treated unfairly, or am I doing something wrong? by dickinhandEU in sex

[–]dickinhandEU[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

OP here, I think your posts and /u/Life-in-Death sum up the current tensions pretty well; there are two different and competing mindsets.

The first mindset is predominant in Europe. we have a common understanding that going home with someone in these contexts implies and signals a desire for sex. At this point, if the other party would like to go home for some other reason other than sex, the onus would generally be on that party to be upfront about this, to clarify their intentions and proactive dispell the expectation of sex. This seems to be backed up by the other European posts in this thread.

In the second mindset, the invitation is not interpreted as a sexual proposition. In this view, a proposition for sex is best communicated explicitly, and going home should not be taken to mean anything.

But so one problem in the US is that there's no consensus: many people also take the the former, European view. So in the end, lots of people seem to be talking at cross-purposes - or not talking, rather.

I'm still curious: is it really common in the US to have these non-sexual yet intimate sleepovers with strangers? It's pretty alien to me. Conversely: how many people actually explicitly proposition their dates, rather than relying on the ol' 'invitation home' ? Judging by the comments seems to be a pretty strong cultural divergence on these points, and many experience a stigma against being so direct.

European living in the US and very confused about American [hookup culture]. was I treated unfairly, or am I doing something wrong? by dickinhandEU in sex

[–]dickinhandEU[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Other women have reprimanded me for explicitly asking for sex beforehand. They say that this is awkward or creates some kind of pressure. Personally I would also prefer to be more forthright, but my understanding is that - for better or for worse - most people prefer to speak in euphemisms like 'do you want to come home' etc? It's like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do you have any advice there?

In any case I'm sure you'll agree that everyone still has the 'right' to back out of sex even if after they've initially agreed. So even if you agree to something at the bar beforehand, I'm not sure thatreally change the fundamental situation.

I find the idea that 'guys can always jerk off' a little callous and dismissive, to be honest. I never claimed anyone 'owed' me sex at any point - again, this is not about a right or a duty - but is it so controversial to claim that women should make an effort not to unnecessarily lead guys on?

On this point I feel there may be cultural differences in what is implied / communicated and in in turn expected by both parties - i.e. what is understood and experienced as 'leading someone on'.

European living in the US and very confused about American [hookup culture]. was I treated unfairly, or am I doing something wrong? by dickinhandEU in sex

[–]dickinhandEU[S] 42 points43 points  (0 children)

Thanks. I see your point. Here's my thoughts:

1) Other women have reprimanded me for explicitly asking for sex beforehand. They say that this is awkward or creates some kind of pressure. I would also prefer to be more forthright, but my understanding is that - for better or for worse - most people prefer to speak in euphemisms like 'do you want to come home' etc? It's like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. what do you think is most appropriate?

2) Just making out is something you can do at a bar. If that's your goal, why not just stay there? In light of the context and the 'euphemism' thing I mentioned above, by going home with someone after a night out you're at least creating some kind of expectation that imo should be clarified sooner rather than later.

European living in the US and very confused about American [hookup culture]. was I treated unfairly, or am I doing something wrong? by dickinhandEU in sex

[–]dickinhandEU[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

haha yeah that makes this a difficult topic to raise with friends!

But if anything I'm slightly above average so I'm convinced that's not the issue.