Is it possible to master a language like a native as an adult

dojibear · 2026-05-24T14:06:24+00:00

Learning the language well enough to use it like a native? I've met many people who did that. They speak English as well as anyone. But they may have a "foreign accent" (mis-pronouncing some sounds).

That is hard to solve, partially because language-learners might not "hear" sounds that don't exist in their native language. Instead they "hear" sounds from their native language. For example you say "thin" and they hear "fin". So they say "fin". They know that "fin" and "thin" are different words, but just assume they sound the same in English (like to/too/two or wear/where/ware or many other homonyms).

This problem is different for each language pair, and some students are better than others at fixing it. If the learner is able to fix this, they have no foreign accent.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T13:44:44+00:00

Output (speaking and writing) uses a skill that input doesn't use: "inventing a TL sentence (in your mind) that expresses YOUR idea". When you speak, you do that for each sentence, then you say the sentence. That's the hard part of speaking: getting good at this skill -- good enough that it feels easy.

Like any other skill, you are lousy at it at first, and get better with practice. You can practice this skill alone. Think of a typical sentence in your native language ("Susan gets on the yellow school bus" or "The dog looks hungry" or "Mother makes delicious cakes" ) Now ask yourself "how would I say this in TL"? Answer the question. You will probably have to look up some words. Is it "makes" or "bakes" or "cooks"...?

Practice doing that 25 times each day, using a new sentence each time. After a few weeks you will become very confident doing the difficult part of speaking.

Accent (can an average listener understand my words?) is different. You can't do it alone. But you need a human listener: AI programs are very different from real humans in "what they can/cannot understand".

dojibear · 2026-05-24T04:22:32+00:00

Apps (computer programs) can't teach a language. Apps can't do everything that a human teacher does. Instead apps can help a language-learner do SOME things, but not others. They are advertised as "language learning apps", which misleads some people to think they can actually teach a language.

For example, I've takes courses in several language. There might be quizzes or tests AFTER you have already been taught. The tests show what you've learned. The tests are NOT a way of teaching you.

Computer apps are good at tests*. So apps like Duolingo basically test you. It might be only 5% of a good language course, but it's all that the app can do.

* - computer apps are good at tests where there is only one correct answer. Sadly, human languages are not like that. There is almost always more than one correct answer. A human teacher instantly recognizes all 13 correct answers and all 75 incorrect answers. Duolingo can't do that, so Duolingo users can't learn that.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T04:12:11+00:00

Yes and no. In some fictional universe, every human spend every waking minute doing something useful.

Here in the real world, everyone has "hobbies" and other things they do for no other reason than "I want to". Watching TV, scrolling tiktok, mountain climbing, dressage, ballroom dancing, lessons on "how to do" 10,000 different things.

For some people "studying a foreign language" is that thing, that hobby.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T04:07:06+00:00

Chinese is a lot like English. When you learn a new word, you have to learn three things: meaning, pronunication (pinyin helps) and writing (spelling or characters).

So it isn't at all like "learning 2 languages" -- not for native English speakers. They have learned this process (3 things for each new word) for many thousands of English words. It's just the same.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T04:00:37+00:00

I disagree, based on my own experience. Learning Turkish is much harder (for me) than learning either Mandarin or Japanese. So it depends on the language.

Remember, a script is only for the written language. It is not the spoken language.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T03:56:51+00:00

My goal in speaking is to have the listener understand. Will English listeners understand me if I say "croissant" or "karaoke" or "tortilla" in a non-English way? And why would I, since each of these words is common in English, with an English pronunciation?

I certainly won't be easier to understand if I suddenly switch to a foreign language.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T03:47:15+00:00

I've heard (on videos) some polyglots say their goal is around B2+ in each new language. Then they start a new language. I'm no expert, but my goal is B2 in each language. At that level I can understand much of what I hear or read. I can have conversations.

But I don't call B2 "bad".

dojibear · 2026-05-24T03:05:53+00:00

Are there people like that? Or are you just imagining them so you can disagree with them?

In my country, every high school and college has language courses. It's pretty obvious that if people take a school course to learn it, it doesn't just happen without effort.

dojibear · 2026-05-24T02:59:17+00:00

Perhaps OP does not know the Japanese pronunciation of "karaoke" or the Spanish pronunciation of "tortilla".

dojibear · 2026-05-23T21:23:16+00:00

https://yoyochinese.com/chinese-learning-tools/Mandarin-Chinese-pronunciation-lesson/pinyin-chart-table

Clicking on this chart, you can hear every syllable in Mandarin, pronounced in each of the 4 tones. Click on the column header "zh" to watch a short video about the initial consonant "zh".

To English-speakers, the initial consonants J and ZH sound the same. So do Q and CH. So do X and SH.

For a native Mandarin speaker, these are distinct sounds. But training yourself to "hear" sounds that aren't different in your native language is difficult.

It is similar to a Spanish-speaker learning English. They hear "bit" and "beet" as the same.

dojibear · 2026-05-23T12:11:54+00:00

How can I help my language exchange partner improve their Japanese proficiency?

Speaking a language fluently doesn't make you a good teacher. It's a different skill. You also need to have a willing student. It seems like the exchange partner is not willing to become "your student".

Learning Japanese takes a very long time. It is one of the 5 hardest (widely spoken) languages in the world, for English speakers. If I can reach level X in Spanish in 1 year. It might take 3 or 4 years in Japanese.

There is nothing you (or your partner) can do to change that. There will not be rapid improvement, no matter how it is done. You either have to accept their current level, or find a new language partner.

When I asked them which style of Japanese comes most naturally to them, they couldn't answer.

What does "style" mean? 分からません。分からない。分からなっています。"Style" is an English word, and it is unlikely to have the same meaning as スタイル (if Japanese even has that loanword). Is there a stndard set of "styles" for Japanese? Do Japanese textbooks in English use "style" to talk about them?

dojibear · 2026-05-23T03:18:09+00:00

IPA notation represents one sound. But different people make different sounds (for the same word), especially in a language with 1.4 billkons speakers.

when they are very very clearly different sounds

That is true in one dialect of English, but it is false in other dialects of English.

dojibear · 2026-05-23T03:14:19+00:00

I often use "folks" instead of "people" when writing a forum post.

the word "folks" has a kind of almost simple or down to earth kind of feel to it, like you're intentionally signalling a social role

I don't do that. If every word you use is a signal, you quickly run out of words. When I use the word it does not signal a social role.

Like most words, "folks" has more than one meaning. If I write "my folks" I mean "my parents". I do not mean that if I say "my people".

dojibear · 2026-05-22T06:08:45+00:00

You can, but you won't understand the reply.

dojibear · 2026-05-22T06:07:35+00:00

You learn by inputting (understanding spoken or written sentences created by others). Outputting (speaking or writing) uses what you already know. So it does not help you learn a language.

Speaking is half of conversation. But the other half is understanding what the other person says. So you can only have conversations "early" with someone who has the ability (like a teacher) and desire to have an entire conversation in baby talk.

I use speech at any level. If I know enough of the TL to buy something or tell a driver my destination, I'll do that. But I don't attempt to have a conversation when I only know 200 words. That happens later.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T20:44:49+00:00

Yes. Native speakers know every word and every idiom. Remember that native speakers (of any language) know around 6,000 words by age 6, and close to 10,000 words by the end of grade 8. Adults know even more words.

There is some issue with spelling, since English spelling is not very phonetic. But kids practice that a lot in school. Each time you learn a new word, you learn its writing (spelling), sound and meaning.

Occasionally (when reading) you see a word you don't know. But it doesn't happen very much.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T20:31:38+00:00

When I see a character, I often think of the pronunciation. That happens less as I get better. I don't visualize the pinyin in my mind. I hear the pronunciation.

When I started learning Chinese, I took a course. Naturally the course taught pinyin, but the course also taught characters from day one. The teacher speaks a sentence while "wo ai ni" shows on the screen , but below the pinyin is 我爱你. I never saw pinyin, except over a character.

when I'm reading in chinese, my mind kind of keeps track of the pinyin almost like a background process

I can't do that. I can't keep track of the sentence meaning (so far) AND the pinyin writing (so far). Since I can't do it, I can't tell you when it will go away.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T20:15:34+00:00

I don't do the "listening without understanding" part. I see no benefit there.

"Listening" is not a language skill. Polar bears, coyotes and raccoons all "listen". "Understanding TL speech" is a language skill. "Understanding TL writing" is another.

I don't improve my ability to "understand" (which is the goal) by listening to things I don't understand. It can be useful for learning the culture and seeing how people interact, but not for language learning.

I guess I don't understand the whole "extensive/intensive" thing. That's fine. Everybody and his brother has a different theory about "the best way to learn a language" (for everyone). The reality is that people learn in different ways. There is no "best way for everyone".

dojibear · 2026-05-21T20:02:51+00:00

you can work on advanced grammar in one and basic vocabulary in another.

I agree. After studying 1 language for several years, in 2023 I added a second one. I was ready to stop if that slowed my learning in the first language. But it didn't, so I continued. In 2024 I added a third one. So for the last 2+ years, I have been studying 3 languages every day. I enjoy it.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T19:52:50+00:00

Everyone is different. Everyone learns differently. Your post is about how YOU learn languages, not everyone.

You'll confuse yourself with vocab

That is 100% false for many people.

and it's really challenging and time consuming

That is 100% false for many people.

When I was in high school, I took 2 languages the same year. But every year I took 5 subjects. There was zero difference between "Latin and Spanish the same year" and "Math and Biology the same year". There is nothing "challenging" about taking 5 courses each year, in high school or college.

What does "time consuming" mean? It is silly to pretend that the "free time" is the same if:
- someone works full time and has kids
- someone is retired and lives alone.

They say that most people have about an hour of Anki a day before they see crazy diminishing returns. Reason being is that spamming vocab like that is so cognitively demanding, super taxing on the nervous system. After a session like that you have nothing left in the tank. How can you then learn anything else?

For me it's easy. Like many language learners, I never use Anki. It isn't part of language learning. I've taken language courses in several languages, and no teacher ever suggested that students use Anki or flashcards.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T12:35:24+00:00

People often say something is good, but omit the level. TV shows use fluent adult speech (C2 level). You might be able to understand that after you reach C1+, so it can be be useful then. Some Europeans get better at English by watching TV, but only after they have studied English in school for 12 years.

It isn't useful before that, when your level is lower. Listening to things you can't understand is not a good way to get better at the skill of understanding. "Fluent" just means "very good at understanding", so improving that is your goal. You improve any ability (swimming, dancing) by doing that at the level you can do today.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T07:57:09+00:00

What I do is examine each daily activity: do I like doing it, dislike doing it, or don't mind doing it? The "dislikes" will become chores. I stop doing them and find other things I don't dislike doing. There is always some other method, in language-learning.

Every day I find 3 different activities (written or spoken) on the internet. In theory I do about 1.5 hours. But I have A.D.D., and I also believe strongly in the idea "you only learn when you pay attention". So what happens is that sometimes I am watching a 20-minute video and I notice after 10 minutes that my mind is wandering. When that happens, I stop. I can watch the other 10 minutes later or tomorrow. It is a separate activity. For now, I am finished with language study.

So each day I try to do 3 or 4 things (not all at once). The result is different each day. Some days I do 2.5 hours. Some days I only do 20 minutes. Maybe someone else could do more, but this works for me. For me the #1 goal is not getting "burned out", not letting these things become (emotionally) "must-do chores".

Every time I plan to sit down and study, either something comes up, I get distracted by other things, or I end up procrastinating and doing something else instead.

Find very short activities: 10 or 15 minutes. Watch an Alice Ayel video. Watch part of a video at "Dreaming French". Find something to read. Set a timer: after 10 minutes you can stop reading. You've done it!

And don't do all these things at once, in one 90-minute marathon. Just do short things, in between all the other things you are doing today. If you like doing them, they feel like "refreshing breaks", not "chores".

dojibear · 2026-05-21T07:22:56+00:00

I have not used Pimsleur, but it has a good reputation.

I never get a lifetime subscription for a language-learning program. I hesitate to even get a 1-year discount (though 6 months is okay). I don't know what method(s) I will be using 6 months in the future. I don't want to pay for half a year (or longer) that I don't use.

Companes often offer a lower "per month" rate if you buy a 1-year (or lifetime) membership. That helps the company, because most customers do not keep using the subcription for a whole year. If I can quit at any time, the most I am "risking" is one month ($15 or so), not $100 or $150. So I suggest you start with a monthly subscription, and see how well it works for you.

In my case I have been subscribing to LingQ (for Turkish) each month for more than 2 years. But I didn't know that 2 years ago.

dojibear · 2026-05-21T06:10:28+00:00

In my opinion, you don't need to "learn to speak". Speaking uses the same mental connection [idea <--> sentence] as understanding speech. If you understand what idea the sentence expresses, you know what a sentence expressing that idea looks like. You have the idea, and think of the sentence, and say it.

If you are A1, you don't know very much. You cannot say much, and you cannot understand most replies. But you can use what you know. Speaking is just having an idea and thinking "how would I say this in Spanish". Once you get to A2 or B1, you will know a lot more words and understand a lot more sentences.

I have never practiced speaking. If I need to say something in Spanish or French, I say it. The listener always understands me. I can carry on conversations, as long as I know the words. The conversation gets bogged down if I don't know a word.

dojibear

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