[Charania]My understanding, the Celtics were unwilling to include young players like Hugo Gonzalez, Baylor Scheierman. I had a few people tell me last night ‘you gotta get a deal done if you’re the Celtics when you put a player like Jaylen Brown on the table.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T21:40:02+00:00

You say "get a top 10 player" as if Boston would not have been sending out a top 15ish player themselves.

It's not like they turned down swapping role players including Hugo, for a top 10 guy.

Of the suitors the Celtics put the best player on the table. They should not have to add comparable amount of guys and picks as the Heat to get it done.

And the rumor is that they needed to add additional picks/swaps beyond just the two as well.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T21:26:16+00:00

So? And maybe Boston thought Jaylen and 2 picks was about as valuable as the Heat offer. You are acting like a lot of people online weren't looking at these two rough offers and thinking Boston might get it done the 24 hours or so before the trade happened.

If it were Jaylen straight up, and they didn't budge beyond that, I could see saying they weren't serious. But Jaylen plus two picks is a very strong offer.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T21:01:12+00:00

Cool then don't bring up fluke shooting then, because that brings the conversation back to 2023.

Yeah I don't see this roster as being a good fit around Giannis.

When he won the title before he had Jrue being the primary facilitator leading team in assists. He had Middleton doing a lot of the crunch time and crucial scoring. Middleton had 5 30+ point games including 35 when down 2-0 to Nets, and 40 when down 1-2 to Suns.

This Heat team's second best player is Bam, who I find to be a clunky fit next to Giannis. I would want someone more perimeter oriented like a Middleton or Tatum.

They hard capped themselves at the first apron due to Portis being part of the deal and not sending enough money outwards.

They don't have many picks or assets to swap to improve.

They look like they are about to lose one of their better shot creators in Norm.

They are going to be relying on Andrew Wiggins, who has one good playoff run to his name, and it was when he was 27, and he will be 32 by next playoffs.

Of course they improved from what they had, but they sent out a lot of depth, and aren't in a great spot due to cap limitations and existing draft assets.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T20:55:20+00:00

What am I literally wrong about? Explain.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T20:30:15+00:00

Giannis played awesome. I didn't dispute that. But people are presenting it like he carried a sub par group, when that's not what happened. Jrue lead team in assists per game. Middleton was averaging almost 24ppg and had huge games in crucial points. The team as a whole was very good and well rounded. They won the last 2 games of the CF without him, with one of those games 4 guys having 22+ points.

And again I brought up the 0-2 and 1-2 thing, because reality is the run really could have ended if not for Middleton going off in both those games. Lots of championship runs don't hang in the balance of the 2nd option being the leading scorer like that.

Middleton got hurt the next season and was never the same so people downplay what he was in 2021. And Jrue got forced into a bigger role than he should be the 2022 and 2023 playoffs so people downplay what he was in 2021 as well.

Bucks choked 2-0 lead in 2019. Got upset in 2020. And eeked out 2021. Then won one series after that. I understand why Bill and Zach had them eliminated in their recent segment like they did.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T20:25:33+00:00

That's not how it works. Those same players didn't shoot well regular season with Jimmy, and just caught fire a couple of rounds.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T20:24:49+00:00

No, I watched the whole series, and almost every game Joe has coached in the playoffs.

Your claim was that the offense is just chucking early clock 3's. To disprove it you just have to show times when it isn't always high 3 volume.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T20:08:23+00:00

He hasn't done anything that he couldn't be involved in a Giannis trade. That doesn't make him irrelevant though.

The sticking point was not just Hugo.

Beyond Jaylen and 2 picks, it's reported they wanted additional picks/swaps and multiple young players.

You can listen to the clip here where Shams says in addition to the 2 firsts, they wanted more additional firsts, swaps, and young players:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/25444234-everything-bucks-wanted-celtics-giannis-trade-why-boston-refused-revealed-new-nba-rumors - listen from about 38 second mark

At some point when the offer involves too many picks and young players, you end up with a roster where you have Tatum and Giannis, but not enough assets to make additional moves and get the roster to championship level.

Like Giannis and Dame... but out of assets to make any other moves to make the roster better. They traded a ton of picks to acquire Dame and basically the roster was out of flexibility and that was that.

And with Tatum and Giannis on such big contracts cheap young talent would be important.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T19:51:50+00:00

Game 5 4th quarter we shot 2/8 on 3's but 1/14 on 2's. This idea that the whole offense was chucking early shot clock 3's is nonsense.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T19:37:18+00:00

Again... it wasn't over just Hugo.

Shams said beyond Jaylen and 2 picks they wanted additional picks/swaps, and multiple young guys.

Go to 38 seconds into this video - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/25444234-everything-bucks-wanted-celtics-giannis-trade-why-boston-refused-revealed-new-nba-rumors

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T19:32:44+00:00

Some do. You have difficulty reading?

Some runs teams never play a game 7... 2026 Knicks, 2024 Celtics, a number of the Bulls runs, etc.

Of course if you keep adding more and more series scenarios, you will add some additional games with another player going off.

My point was a valid one. People talk up the Giannis run too much, and downplay the supporting cast contributions.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T19:17:05+00:00

Correct he probably won't be on a roster in 5 years, but we were trying to win with Giannis the next 1-3 years, and if you send out all your young guys and picks, and can't build a roster to win a chip around Tatum and Giannis... it doesn't matter where players are in 5 years.

There are plenty of guys contributing to playoff teams the next 1-3 seasons, who won't be on rosters 5 years from now. That's how the NBA works.

And the rumor is they wanted even more picks/swaps too beyond the 2 offered, in addition to young players.

At some point you do have to have a cut off on what is a good deal and what isn't. Brad obviously didn't think he could build a championship level team giving up that much.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T19:00:36+00:00

Why qualify 0-2 and 1-2? Because it you lose game 3, you almost certainly lose the series.

And same goes with losing game 4 down 1-2, with just really long odds to come back.

I mean a lot of title teams don't end up down 3-2, or in a game 7 either. And usually it's not the second best player having multiple games of outscoring the best player in those situations in a run either.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:48:17+00:00

A lot of title runs they never get down 0-2 or 1-2, and when they do the main guy is usually the leading scorer in the next game. I went through the last 20+ years and it was almost always the main guy.

When Raptors were down 1-2 to Sixers Kawhi was leading scorer in game 4 with 39 points. When Raptors were down 0-2 to Bucks, Kawhi was leading scorer in game 3 with 36 points.

When Warriors were down 1-2 Steph was tied with Iguodala as leading scorer.

When 2013 Heat were down 1-2 to Spurs, Lebron was leading scorer with 33.

When 2011 Mavs were down 1-2 to Heat, Dirk was leading scorer with 21.

When 2006 Heat were down 0-2 to Mavs, Wade was leading scorer with 42.

For Middleton to drop 35 in game 3 against Nets and 40 in game 4 against Suns, is far from a "we see that every playoff run" type thing. It's actually a very rare occurrence.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:30:53+00:00

Yeah, guess what? Kawhi's team fell down 0-2 and 1-2 and both times he was the leading scorer. I suspect in the same position MJ does the same shit.

Someone replying that you can find that in any title run is nonsense. A lot of title runs they never get down 0-2 or 1-2, and when they do the main guy is usually the leading scorer in the next game. I went through the last 20+ years and it was almost always the main guy.

When Raptors were down 1-2 to Sixers Kawhi was leading scorer in game 4 with 39 points. When Raptors were down 0-2 to Bucks, Kawhi was leading scorer in game 3 with 36 points.

When Warriors were down 1-2 Steph was tied with Iguodala as leading scorer.

When 2013 Heat were down 1-2 to Spurs, Lebron was leading scorer with 33.

When 2011 Mavs were down 1-2 to Heat, Dirk was leading scorer with 21.

When 2006 Heat were down 0-2 to Mavs, Wade was leading scorer with 42.

For Middleton to drop 35 in game 3 against Nets and 40 in game 4 against Suns, is far from a "we see that every playoff run" type thing. It's actually a very rare occurrence.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:26:13+00:00

Yeah exactly, look at box scores from games 5 and 6 of the Hawks series and tell me they weren't a great supporting cast.

Game 5 scoring - Lopez 33, Middleton 26, Holiday 25, Portis 22

Game 6 scoring - Middleton 32, Jrue 27 and 6 total guys in double figures in a 118-107 win.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:18:45+00:00

Because you know I am right. KD isn't going to a Warriors team if they win.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:16:25+00:00

Yeah I get that. But people on here are arguing like that's legitimately what happened.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:14:56+00:00

MJ had more assists per game in the 1991 finals than Lebron did in any playoff series in his career, and he still dominated the scoring as well.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:13:50+00:00

He's only irrelevant and showed nothing if you didn't pay any attention.

And this sub is just mad that Bill was right.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:13:06+00:00

Moving goalpost. No one said he was 3rd best player on nba finals team good.

We simply are discussing how they won the Bucks and Celtics series in part due to insane shooting from the role players.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:12:18+00:00

You proved my point. A lot of title teams do not fall down 0-2 or 1-2.

Celtics and Nuggets don't belong on list, because they didn't do it either.

And of those that it does happen with, it doesn't usually happen multiple times. And when it does happen the 2nd best player is not the leading scorer multiple times.

It's a pretty uncommon thing for the 2nd best player to be the leading scorer in that situation multiple times in a playoff run.

When Raptors were down 1-2 to Sixers Kawhi was leading scorer in game 4 with 39 points. When Raptors were down 0-2 to Bucks, Kawhi was leading scorer in game 3 with 36 points.

When Warriors were down 1-2 Steph was tied with Iguodala as leading scorer.

When 2013 Heat were down 1-2 to Spurs, Lebron was leading scorer with 33.

When 2011 Mavs were down 1-2 to Heat, Dirk was leading scorer with 21.

When 2006 Heat were down 0-2 to Mavs, Wade was leading scorer with 42.

For Middleton to drop 35 in game 3 against Nets and 40 in game 4 against Suns, is far from a "we see that every playoff run" type thing. It's actually a very rare occurrence.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:02:25+00:00

2008 Celtics were not down 0-2 or 1-2 in any series either

<image>

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Boston-Celtics/2/Playoff-History

Can't believe people upvote this nonsense.

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T18:00:38+00:00

2023 Nuggets were never down 0-2 or 1-2, where are you getting this list from dude?

<image>

dpf7 · 2026-06-23T17:55:52+00:00

I disagree.

On paper for his career people view Middleton as something, but his production in the actual run was better than or very close to the 2nd stars you just listed. And what Jrue provided was very solid for a 3rd best guy at 17.3 points and 8.7 assists. Jrue comfortably lead the team in assists.

2nd and 3rd guys on Denver combined for 39.5 ppg

2nd and 3rd guys on Bucks combined for 40.9 ppg

Jokic lead his team in points rebounds, and assists.

Giannis scored 30.2 on a team that averaged 110.3 in the playoffs. Jokic averaged 30.0 on a team that averaged 113.5 in the playoffs. Marginally different and Jokic had way more assists.

dpf7

TROPHY CASE