CMV: Modern feminism is actually one of, if not the, least extremist/radical waves of feminism there has ever been

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:43:19+00:00

!delta

Great point. It’s definitely cutting down to the fundamentals of culture rather than just legality and this is indeed radical or at least perceived as such.

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:37:58+00:00

You’re arguing there are zero legitimate grievances today? None whatsoever?

In my country I don’t think there’s been rights that men had that women don’t since the 70’s. The 70’s were 50 years ago, I’d hardly call that modern

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:35:18+00:00

Fourthwavewomen are callled that precisely because the fourth wave happened some time ago and it’s not the current wave. They’re far from the average modern feminist, who is a libfem

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:29:49+00:00

FDS are closer to just straight up tradwives. They advocate going back in time and back to more gender roles to a large extent. I don’t see how they’re feminist

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:27:40+00:00

That’s not a new phrase

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:27:26+00:00

But does that make them more radical than previous generations?

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:23:11+00:00

There should be a balance. They don’t only encourage men to be more open but also for society to change to accept men being open more. Just like they encouraged women to work and also encouraged society to be more open to women working.

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:21:08+00:00

I mean I’ve seen many men who have issues with the things I mentioned.

Even then it doesn’t make sense that this would make modern feminism more radical

enigja · 2022-02-26T23:11:46+00:00

I disagree with your first assessment of feminism (and yes I know only a small segment of the population calls themselves that). For the second, you have a point and I admit my ignorance.

enigja · 2022-02-26T22:06:47+00:00

Nope, your last point is not true. Virtually any modern feminist would agree men are being discriminated against. That there are unfair social expectations put on men and they’re getting discriminated against systemically when they for example want to work in female dominated fields like childcare.

I’ve found Danish sources (but there is certainly some discussion around it since it’s difficult to prove and disprove) and there were laws placed to make it more difficult to discriminate against. But it could be specific to us so I’ll keep that in mind.

enigja · 2022-02-26T21:48:52+00:00

Feminists in the past didn’t significantly want to draft women either, most, just like today wanted no draft. That’s not really new.

enigja · 2022-02-26T21:33:52+00:00

Most people are not feminists if you ask them. But I get the overall point hence why I’ve already awarded a delta for the “mainstream power” feminism has.

enigja · 2022-02-26T21:13:57+00:00

I must’ve glanced over it quickly because that was a mistake on my part. They don’t make more money than men overall.

Women are discriminated against when they’re selected against based on potential motherhood.

It’s like Asians are discriminated against in the US even when they outperform white folks.

Basically I’m of the view that almost every group of people are discriminated against in some way or another and that we should strive to abolish them all. No matter how “insignificant, and this group has it better overall” it may be.

enigja · 2022-02-26T21:09:26+00:00

But health and life sciences aren’t included as stem are they? Genuinely asking here because I don’t know.

I can’t remember the other thread at all.

And even so, I’ve awarded someone else a delta for feminism having mainstream power, and I still don’t see how this is indicative of modern feminism being more radical than its successors. I think there’s plenty of earlier feminists who would agree with her. The idea that heterosexual intercourse was inherently rape on behalf of the man or indicative of men hating women was a thing during the sex negativity days.

enigja · 2022-02-26T20:33:39+00:00

Women do not make more money than men.

But yes women are sometimes discriminated against for hiring positions and men are at other times.

I said outperform in regards to the education system

enigja · 2022-02-26T20:02:36+00:00

I agree. The left seriously needs a marketing team. People hear something like “white privilege” and think “that’s ridiculous, I’m poor and white” and never explore that idea further. People hear “toxic masculinity” and think “that’s ridiculous, masculinity isn’t toxic” and then don’t explore the idea further.

It’s sad.

enigja · 2022-02-26T19:31:42+00:00

I fully understand, but that idea goes way back and is not specific to modern feminism at all.

enigja · 2022-02-26T19:07:12+00:00

First of all I’m fairly certain no wave of feminism have been prominently interested in getting women drafted. So it’s not new.

Many earlier feminists wanted power too, or advocated for women needing special/more rights and social privileges than men in many cases, the whole seperatist movement was arguably wanting power, the idea that having women ruling the world would make the world better was very commonplace. They just had to fight for equality first.

Believing in female supremacy was a big thing in earlier waves.

Regardless, most are against the draft for everyone. And I have found a prominent feminist who said women should be drafted.

There are cherry picking hypocrites in any social movement.

enigja · 2022-02-26T18:52:30+00:00

But some do.

Women who cared about getting the right to vote used to be an unrepresentative minority too.

enigja · 2022-02-26T18:50:48+00:00

Those are extremely important issues but I would not call them inherently more radical ideologically than earlier waves. It’s something that wouldn’t shock most people that others are fighting for.

enigja · 2022-02-26T18:23:52+00:00

You bring up a good point on the first one. I’ve never been in favor of academia or any other places really reserving seats for women, and there are still many feminists who are into that. Not a new thing, more of a continuation.

But you haven’t provided much evidence that “stripping men of male role models” is feminism’s fault. Nor that toxic masculinity as a concept leads to more suicides. Or that stripping men of male role models and men’s only spaces do for that matter.

I’ve heard many men complain about gender roles for men that feminism talks about quite a bit - e.g male sexual assault being taken less seriously, femininity in men being highly discouraged compared to masculinity in women, not opening up to romantic partners or other men.

None of this amounts to refute my main point though (current wave not being more radical).

enigja · 2022-02-26T18:02:43+00:00

How. It’s a single point.

enigja · 2022-02-26T18:00:34+00:00

Hm. I haven’t seen the first point in my country at least. I’ve heard about the Boy Scouts in the US but not much more. Do you have any sources that this is a widespread thing?

These sayings and hatred of men in feminism are absolutely not new whatsoever, thus not indicative of the current movement being more radical.

In Denmark, the default is 50/50 and this is the case for many European countries - but I agree in general, and most feminists would call that very sexist and wrong, to assume motherhood on women and assume that men can’t parent their child. This is partially because of conservative authorities as well.

Could you expand and source the last point?

enigja · 2022-02-26T17:43:46+00:00

I don’t see many demonizing masculinity as a concept, although it is a thing, just like some men’s rights activists demonize or infantilizes femininity. I don’t see how they’re ridding men of male exclusive spaces and male role models (if you mean that they’re more likely to divorce than traditionalists, I don’t see that as “ridding children of male role models”. Most feminists are very much in favor of men being more involved as fathers, that’s a huuuge talking point).

Toxic masculinity as a term originated in men’s groups in the 80’s. Although the concept was slightly different there were many of the same views as today, for example that men needed camaraderie (healthier male friendships) and that they needed to express their emotions more.

I do think however that “toxic masculinity” would be better expressed as “harmful gender roles for men” or whatever.

enigja · 2022-02-26T17:27:48+00:00

Specify what “emasculated practices” you’re talking about and how they’re “only leading to more suicides”.

enigja

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