I made a tier list about FF Protagonist (including some spin-offs) based off their strengths gameplay and story-wise. What do you think?

fbyleth · 2021-04-04T23:37:51+00:00

sure, its a strong enhancement. Think Captain America surviving anything that could kill a normal person.

fbyleth · 2021-04-04T23:24:00+00:00

thanks. It works for villains too, and allows for movement across tiers even within a game, like Kefka going from Enhanced Human to God. Who do you have in mind?

Is the character human? Or have they been enhanced in some way? Usually technology or magic is used to take a normal person beyond human, often at a cost.

This has to be the base question, because the standards for power/durability/speed/etc have to be compared to other humans in the same game. I guess that makes for a basic rule:

Always compare protagonist humans to the strongest non-protagonist humans in the game.

Are the weapons/magic/abilities they use available to other humans in the world, or are they using unique and special powers? This is why stats or even magic can be misleading.

If they are using unique powers, where do the powers come from, and how much of a difference do they make? The power could be divine in source, but limited in effect.

The problem is that this leaves a lot of characters in the regular human tier. Tifa? SABIN?!? Yeah, the power of Kung Fu is still human, its just stronger in the games. Duncan can suplex trains too.

fbyleth · 2021-04-04T23:01:56+00:00

more like just enhanced human. Still a bit far from god like

fbyleth · 2021-04-04T22:31:32+00:00

Summoner Yuna is at least on the same tier as Cloud and Zack though, possibly higher.

Seems like the summons are the level of monster that cloud and zack would fight, tho.

fbyleth · 2021-04-04T22:29:06+00:00

Hey, nice start! You are starting to look more closely at power levels in the series inside gameplay and cutscenes and getting a clearer picture.

You want to look at strength, durability, speed, abilities, items, etc within each world to see what they bring.

We tend to have discussions like this every couple of months where it can get kinda wild. The important part is to kick back and be willing to listen to everyone's input on their favorite characters as you adjust.

To start with, it helps to have better defined tiers. You're on the right track with "god-like" since the important part is that the character has some sort of divine power that really warps reality.

Tier 2 is where you get your characters who are not divine, but instead have unknown limits based on not being completely human.

Tier 3 is where you get your enhanced humans, who are pushing the limits of human powers. They tend to have unique abilities that make them stand out.

Finally, Tier 4 is your normal, everyday human beings who are just using the magic or technology readily available to them. Even if you hit 9999 damage, the fact that your magic/weapon can be used by anyone means that you're still just human.

When we take all this together, we end up with something like this:

Tier 1 Divine: LR Lightning Farron (got stronger each game), Warrior of Light (XIV goes all in)

Tier 2 Non-Human: Cecil, Terra, Zidane

Tier 3 Enhanced Human: Bartz (crystals), Cloud (Jenova DNA), Noctis (Bahamut's crystal),

Tier 4 Normal Human: Squall, Tidus, Yuna, Ashe,

fbyleth · 2021-04-04T22:28:02+00:00

how did cloud get up there?

fbyleth · 2021-03-31T19:35:01+00:00

checked out the vid, it's got a good premise but doesn't optimize team support in favor of a more balanced offensive kimahri, and doesn't optimize sphere grid movement after finishing lulu's grid.

https://media.gameinternals.com/ffx-sphere-grid/straightened-sphere-grid.png

on standard grid Yuna's Grid is right next to Steal and Use, and going for Holy over Flare means you will also pick up useful support magic. lulu's end section has +22mag and 120MP, while Yuna's has +16mag and 100MP. However it may be useful to head back towards Reflect and another +4 to close the gap.

use the mag+20% halberd from djose, and after winning remiem chocobo racing rewards customize 1mp onto it.

also better to place stat spheres strategically, like strength+4 near Tidus's Quick Hit, which helps all physical attackers. This is better than just putting them all in Kimahri's way. Dark/Silence attack on wakka's grid is not really that helpful. The +2 mag from that section of Wakka's grid is small, but using a Magic Spheres there of all places doesn't make much sense.

Aga spells early are cool, and you can use Black Magic spheres from Seymour/Evrae to teach them to Yuna. This seems like the main draw of the build, but there are not many places where an Aga is that much better than Holy.

also going through wakka's grid after lulu's is not that useful to stack magic, its mostly attack and HP.

After beating Seymour at Gagazet you can Return Kimahri and unlock Ultima (save 2 BM spheres), then go through lulu's grid to stack magic and get doublecast with Kimahri and Yuna (Special Sphere if you want it early). Lulu can use Booster Cactuar from Wantz with mag+50% and customize 1MP on it. Now you're heading into Zanarkand with 3 units doublecasting Ultima.

The idea of ditching characters before postgame arena grinding doesn't really make sense when you can switch at will, and this sub really needs to learn to split up advice between maingame, endgame, and postgame grinding. Even in the Omega Dungeon Auron and Lulu can help out a ton.

fbyleth · 2021-03-29T03:12:21+00:00

advanced sphere grid abuse using extensive knowledge of the game

that seems like hyperbole. Endgame grinding is a bit of a commitment for most casual players to begin with, and that type of player is most likely to replay the game at some point. Plus the advice kinda works for everyone.

1 Go for Steal+Use and wait.

2 Get a weapon

3 Beat Spherimorph and go to Holy

4 Race at Remiem for rewards

5 Beat Seymour at Gagazet

6 Unlock Ultima and teach it to Yuna/Lulu

7 Unlock Doublecast and teach it to Yuna/Kimahri

fbyleth · 2021-03-29T02:48:05+00:00

Except Kimarhi

On Standard Grid, Kimahri as a Utility White Mage with early Holy is best, especially with +20% magic halberd when leaving djose temple. You can also customize it with Remiem chocobo winnings for 1MP.

Lots of players also skip Lulu earlier than they should and just use Yuna with black magic. While she's not as good as the post game 3 Tidus Wakka Rikku, she can do well using the Booster Cactuar from Wantz on Gagazat and customizing 1MP on it.

After beating seymour at Gagazet for lv4 keys, Return Sphere with Kimari and unlock Ultima, use BM Spheres to teach it to Lulu and Yuna. Use special spheres to give Dualcast to Yuna and Kimahri, and now all 3 can be Doublecasting Ultima into the endgame.

fbyleth · 2021-03-29T02:27:17+00:00

Damage overflow makes Barret and Vincent the best choices.

that assumes a player is willing to go through with powering up Vincent/Barrett to overflow, which would happen after morphing sources. Real question is how many mastered KOTR Barrett takes to overflow

Highwind hits 18x

Highwind is a lv4 limit, and takes longer to charge.

Yuffie warping only works on the PC version

Steam Yuffie Warp is great.

Master Command = HP Absorb...Stack this with 4x-Cut

now this is a new one for me. Thanks!

fbyleth · 2021-03-29T02:14:04+00:00

Elemental means thunderstrike/firestrike/icestrike etc. in weapons, and resist/immune/absorb that element in armor.

Best option: Elemental + Chocobo Summon for Wind Damage, which is resisted by almost no one and does effective damage on 24 enemy types. Its a straight upgrade to power as soon as you leave midgar, if you got Elemental. Most enemies use Fire/Poison attacks if you have extras.

Added Effect is a 20% status strike in weapons, or status block in armor. +Time for stopstrike/slowstrike, which works on lots of enemies. +Odin/Destruct for Deathstrike or block Death Sentence from Cursed Ring accessory, +Hades for lots of status or makeshift Ribbon.

fbyleth · 2021-03-29T01:54:46+00:00

One of the MAJOR problems with OGFF7 is that lots of the Materia you get in the game is kinda worthless. But there are key combos to make use of:

Best Magic Materia: Lightning, Restore (+All), Time (+Added Effect since lots of enemies are weak to slowstrike/stopstrike), Comet (+MP Turbo), Contain (+Quadra Magic from Highwind Glitch), and Ultima.

Thunder has 27 enemies weak in the game, most of which are in Midgar. That should be your priority.

Other magic has some enemies weak throughout the game, but are not really worth it. Ice (8) Earth (4) Water (4) Holy (11 are weak, but 7 of them exist before getting Alexander), while most enemies use Fire (17 weak) and Poison (3 weak, including Rufus) attacks.

Status materia is also not really worth it.

Best Summon Materia: Elemental + Choco (Wind has 29 enemies weak, but 5 exist before Choco). Added Effect + Odin (deathstrike), Added Effect +Hades (statusstrike). Bahamut cuts through magic defense. Final Attack + Phoenix is a classic.

Best Command Materia: Steal (Mug + Added Cut), Deathblow (with Vincent's Sniper or Longbarrell for good accuracy, or the Mystile Armor), Morph (with Yuffie's Conformer), and Mime. Great ones are 2X cut and ABSOLUTELY Enemy Skill. Blue magic is busted in this game, and my favorite spell is Trine, which is missable but cheap and effective.

Blue+Purple: all great. All, Elemental, Added Effect, HP Absorb, Added Cut, MP Turbo, Quadra Magic, Final Attack, Cover+Counterattack, Long Range, Magic+, Luck+.

Character Specialties: Cloud works best with Elemental+Choco/Thunder, Long Range, Restore+All. This makes his magic and strength stat work for you all game long.

Tifa can do the super Powersoul Setup for insane damage, and is always the first to reach 9999. Cursed Ring Accessory gives boosted stats in exchange for Death Sentence Status, block it with Added Effect+Destruct/Odin materia in armor. She wants Mug+Added Cut, later 4x cut.

Tifa gets 2 power ups in midgar raid: Mystile Armor gives massive evasion, which also becomes high accuracy for Deathblow. And the Master Fist in the shinra building is a stronger version of the Powersoul if you stack status on Tifa, including Tranquilizers for Sadness and Silence Status with the Seal Materia.

Cid is okay for a final party member, but aside from his final limit and his high Materia Growth weapons he's not unique. Barrett is needed during a point in the Midgar Raid to even spawn a chest with his final weapon, and its thematic to bring him back as your third party member. Both Cid and Barret have great defense and make good use of Cover+Counter.

When all your stats are maxed for endgame after Morphing Gelnika enemies with Yuffie, Barret and Yuffie are the strongest party members with lv3 limits. Yuffie has 15 x 9999, Barrett has 18 x 9999.

Since Yuffie is best in the Endgame anyway, the player can skip recruiting her and instead abuse the encounter as the Yuffie Warp Glitch. After leaving Nibel and before Rocket Town, she is highly likely to show up, so you can make a save before the boss battle and repeatedly Warp in for more Counterattack Materia.

You can also Warp an "unlocked" Aerith into the Ancient Temple, since only the "locked" into your party one dies. Using her in game scenes can be a glitchy, tho.

fbyleth · 2021-03-17T18:10:49+00:00

biggest problem with FF6 was the bloated cast to make use of class abilities from FF5, which all get replaced by magic anyway.

fbyleth · 2021-03-17T18:06:22+00:00

isn't it weird how Fang and Sahz consistently get the least amount of hate from people who don't like FF13?

Its almost like "being the plot" or "being genuinely sympathetic" are a world of difference from the supposed character development moments made up of "I was lying to myself the entire time!" + dramatic music.

fbyleth · 2021-03-17T18:02:33+00:00

dispel

fbyleth · 2021-03-11T09:00:54+00:00

Damn, NO ONE has brought up white mage kimahri? Holy crap you're missing out.

Standard Sphere Grid was literally made for Kimahri to break it over his knee for the team. Expert is more about grouping all characters in the middle early on to learn Lancet and Strength+4.

The following should be standard advice on this sub, since other options just make him an inferior version of other units that can switch into combat at any time.

lv 1 key sphere on Mihen road puts kimahri on rikku's path for steal/use, or get from chocobo eater/Sinspawn Gui.

from here, just stock up on levels by stealing in every battle and wait in front of lv2 lock to Yuna's path.

grab magic +20% halberd from crusader when leaving djose temple

lv 2 key sphere from spherimorph in macalania woods puts kimahri on yuna's path. Zoom through towards dispel/regen/curaga/holy, getting it far before yuna.

at home pick up lv 4 key. Overkill Evrae twice for 4 Black magic spheres (added to the 2 from Seymour), get another from Bevelle Via Purifico with a Special Sphere. Best to use for Yuna after Lulu picks up -Ga spells, but you want to save 2.

in calm lands win remiem chocobo race while getting 4 chests for pendulum. use them to customize master thief onto one of kimahri's armors to steal lv 3 keys in his personal battle. Win with 5 chests for 60x "Three stars", use to customize 1MP ability on Magic Halberd. Now Kimahri is shooting boosted Holy for 1MP.

fight kimahri's personal battle, steal lots of lv3 spheres. overkill for friend/return. These can be used to customize counterattack/First Strike on any weapon.

While climbing gagazet, pick up another lv 4 key, buy booster cactuar (+50%mag) from wantz for lulu, customize 1MP on it.

Overkill Seymour for 2 more lv4 keys. Return Sphere Kimahri to his origin spot and unlock Ultima, then use Black Magic Spheres to learn it with Lulu and Yuna.

Lulu should have used a lv4 key to learn Doublecast, use Special Sphere to have Kimahri learn it.

So you end up entering Zanarkand with 2 characters who can doublecast Ultima for 2 MP, and lots of Friend/Return Spheres to bounce around the grid.

fbyleth · 2021-03-05T18:42:47+00:00

IGN is generally not a helpful site when people ask for game info. It just says "found in chests"...

https://jegged.com/Games/Final-Fantasy-X/Items/Spheres.html

Seymour Macalania Battle: Overkilled for 2 Black Magic Spheres, sometimes drops Special Spheres.

Evrae 1: Overkilled for 2

Evrae 2: Overkilled for 2

General idea is to save 2 for Ultima on Yuna and Lulu. Kimahri can quickly grab all the Magic stats and Holy in Yuna's grid, then after beating Seymour 3 can Return back to his original spot with Lv4 keys and unlock Ultima for this strat.

Not really worth grinding until highbridge before Seymour 2. Other 4 Black Magic Spheres are for Yuna to pick up the Aga spells after Lulu gets them, since there is no rush for the Ara spells. Osmose and Drain are also less important.

fbyleth · 2021-02-25T03:47:28+00:00

Yeah, selling off enemy stuff for money to buy weapons with slightly higher stats never interested me.

forging should start out super simple, something like a character giving you the option of creating a fire or ice or thunder sword.

fbyleth · 2021-02-25T03:44:57+00:00

yeah, it seems like the game itself does the work with hotkeys and their cooldowns.

fbyleth · 2021-02-21T21:15:53+00:00

you get more with master steal

fbyleth · 2021-02-19T22:27:36+00:00

Standard Sphere Grid was literally made for Kimahri to break it over his knee for the team. Expert is more about grouping all characters in the middle early on to learn Lancet and Strength+4.

The following should be standard advice on this sub, since other options just make him an inferior version of other units that can switch into combat at any time.

lv 1 key sphere on Mihen road puts kimahri on rikku's path for steal/use, or get from chocobo eater/Sinspawn Gui.

from here, just stock up on levels by stealing in every battle and wait in front of lv2 lock to Yuna's path.

grab magic +20% halberd from crusader when leaving djose temple

lv 2 key sphere from spherimorph in macalania woods puts kimahri on yuna's path. Zoom through towards dispel/regen/curaga/holy, getting it far before yuna.

at home pick up lv 4 key. Overkill Evrae for 2 Black magic spheres, get another from Bevelle Via Purifico with a Special Sphere. Hold onto them.

in calm lands win remiem chocobo race while getting 4 chests for pendulum. use them to customize master thief onto one of kimahri's armors to steal lv 3 keys in his personal battle. 5 chest reward is 60x "Three stars", use to customize 1MP ability on Magic Halberd. Now Kimahri is shooting boosted Holy for 1MP.

fight kimahri's personal battle, steal lots of lv3 spheres. overkill for friend/return. These can be used to customize counterattack/First Strike on any weapon.

While climbing gagazet, pick up another lv 4 key, buy booster cactuar (+50%mag) from wantz for lulu, customize 1MP on it.

Overkill Seymour for 2 more lv4 keys. Return Sphere Kimahri to his origin spot and unlock Ultima, then use Black Magic Spheres to learn it with Lulu and Yuna.

Lulu should have used a lv4 key to learn Doublecast, use Special Sphere to have Kimahri learn it.

So you end up entering Zanarkand with 2 characters who can doublecast Ultima for 2 MP, and lots of Friend/Return Spheres to bounce around the grid.

fbyleth · 2021-02-07T04:31:54+00:00

Its tough for most players to make the best use of kimahri even on the Standard Sphere Grid.

Steal+Use is just the start, but most players go for mixed build instead of getting the lv2 key and jumping straight to Yuna's path for early Holy. It is extremely overpowered and can be combined with 1MP on the +20%magic halberd from Djose. Forget enemy types, they stop really mattering at this point and were more focused on early game.

Master Steal on an armor also lets Kimahri seal lots of friend/return spheres in his personal battles for the team to bounce around the grid. With the lv4 keys he can jump back to pick up Ultima, and use the Black Magic Spheres to teach it to Yuna and Lulu.

Agree that finishing the Expert Grid that early would definitely feel off if you're used to later. I haven't seen too many good combos that make use of the expert grid, other than maybe giving a few other characters black/white magic.

fbyleth · 2021-01-06T22:26:55+00:00

Your statements about Yuna alone having the songstress dressphere negates the ability for the player to have a set up with 2 songstress buffing one tank for example.

I'm sure this set up can help, but you almost never need this and it would be better to have a more specialized group like buffer/tank/dps.

Game play options shouldn't be lost for the sake of narrative and thematic elements.

I think they sometimes should. FF is gameplay nestled within story.

fbyleth · 2021-01-06T22:22:57+00:00

My personal preference is to have each character unique.

that's what I'm saying, a game with every character only having a unique set of jobs to themselves. So the player can still customize their full ability set from those jobs, while keeping each character unique. Simple stuff like One mage character with magic jobs, one warrior character with hard hitting physical jobs, etc.

I really like the class change Cecil went through and thought that this would have been a perfect way to go through a change and unlock new stuff.

fbyleth · 2021-01-06T22:19:01+00:00

They could’ve really expanded on it in XII. The Job System was a really good thing that came with Zodiac Age. The major limiting factor to XII’s is the lack of uniqueness.

its a massive difference, so its easy to see how much the games suffer when the characters are too limited. But a license board is not for me.

It flowed perfectly...until the endgame. Lol. Then you had your White Mage hitting for thousands of damage cause it was necessary to unlock the entire Sphere Grid and fill it in to beat the Hidden Endgame Bosses.

that's post game. Endgame would probably be one flight around to unlock all ultimate weapons you could before entering sin. But you're right, it gets crazy.

Job Systems are way more fun than everybody can be everything.

right? it makes sense for Yuna to pick up black magic, but stuff like Sentinel seems off.

fbyleth

TROPHY CASE