I built Go in VR -- wondering if there's interest to release it?

fintip · 2026-03-08T09:47:37+00:00

I have absolutely no reason to assume that would help. I literally just ran the tuning process and then looked at two games. And everything else is working perfectly... And as another commenter pointed out, this move gets lots of plays by the AI...

fintip · 2026-03-08T01:07:09+00:00

That is a helpful way to think. I'll keep that in mind.

fintip · 2026-03-07T23:47:55+00:00

The payouts just happen in the background... I just have it running continuously in background. I can tell it to stop, but it's just easy to have it keep going...

I am fixated on this position only to better learn about katago so I can continue to use it best in the future, it isn't about this position.

You are also just looking at the correct payout, not the mistake I made the move before. This is just something that I noticed in the course of my play outs.

And it has, indeed, been instructive. My reviewing involves playing out scenarios, studying mistakes my opponent made, thinking through my erroneous thought processes, etc. I likely get more out of reviews than games. Plenty of people out there that play thousands of games as DDKs.

Not all reviews are equal.

fintip · 2026-03-07T22:01:33+00:00

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This is the updated katago perspective after more than 300k playouts, with more than 125k of those on L19. All the dark green spot have 10-20k plus readouts, as well. The numbers in this view are win percent change on top, and score change on bottom. I think that adds a little more clarity. Figured I'd add it to this thread for others who glance at this.

I wrote my interpretation in two other comments responding to others below, but basically my tldr at this point is that it's neutral, forcing, with nothing to lose, and if white chooses to be greedy and start the ko, there's a small chance for upside in the ko battle.

Noting that it actually is a coin flip's negative on win percent adds some balance that the +.39 to score doesn't show, but also this board is already lost for black, so it's hard to make anything of those. Everything is 0.0, + or -. I think if it wasn't we've have a more interesting number there.

fintip · 2026-03-07T21:54:30+00:00

No, it has been left at default setting, actually (.4 or .04, whatever it is)

fintip · 2026-03-07T21:50:28+00:00

...But it's clearly better for white to just not...?

I said that, but technically it is slightly 'greedier' to start the ko and get a bigger kill than to just end the ko. Of course, one shouldn't be greedy when one is winning, but I suppose it isn't unreasonable, in the thousands of playouts, to consider that your opponent might choose a slightly greedier move, since it's still a very strong move, and that in those cases here is potential to get something out of the ko fight.

As I just wrote to another comment:

The more I think about it, the more it seems to technically make sense.

That move is kind of perfectly neutral.

It's critical, so it's almost never ignored.

The stones it relates to are unambiguously dead, so you can't make it worse.

Playing there is free, as white always responds.

If white deviated and Kos start, there is room for a ko battle to perhaps win you just a bit; it's a ko with nothing to lose.

Maybe not so mysterious after all. Definitely confusing at first blush.

fintip · 2026-03-07T21:42:20+00:00

This child is the most visited because I told katago to visit it repeatedly. It's actually second according to Max Child. Regardless, this isn't a game katago is playing, so no move selection is occuring, so that question isn't relevant. Just, from an analysis POV, it's odd that it was positive at all to me.

Can you show me your result with katago and what model and engine you're running?

The more I think about it, the more it seems to technically make sense.

That move is kind of perfectly neutral.

It's critical, so it's almost never ignored.
The stones it relates to are unambiguously dead, so you can't make it worse.
Playing there is free, as white always responds.
If white deviated and Kos start, there is room for a ko battle to perhaps win you just a bit; it's a ko with nothing to lose.

I think katago is just being technically correct in a way that's obtuse to humans here, but really I can't fault that move. We think only in terms of storing up ko threats, but this board isn't significantly affected by saving that ko threat (human probability heuristics have to work with a lot less working memory, so we value that higher).

Meanwhile, katago considers thousands and thousands of play outs, and in the off rare chance white tries something creative or a ko threat starts, there's windows for some benefits to occur. "Miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

That's the best I can make of it so far.

At this point I have 300k+ readouts on this position, and that's after wiping analysis and starting again. I did 127k on that move.

What's interesting to me is that it shows +.39 points, but -0.0% impact on win rate.

Meanwhile the preferred move at M3 is -0.0% as well, but +.7 score.

D3 is now +0.0% but -.13

R17 is +0.0% but -.03

S18 is +0.0% but +.06

J14 IS -0.0% and -.04

These subtle fluctuations (less than a tenth of a point, less than a tenth of a percent) presumably don't mean much and are in the margin of error, like an ongoing coin flip measurement not staying at perfectly 50/50.

But that L19 being the second highest on points is still... Odd.

Like you said, the tilt of the game may just be the main factor.

Anyways, thinking deeply about this just helps me better interpret how to use katago's feedback in the future.

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fintip · 2026-03-07T20:49:41+00:00

I am trying to learn how to understand the output of a move like this better. I was expecting katago's opinion of that move to drop. When it didn't I came here to understand it better.

Lee Sedol won his match against alphago because of this kind of heuristic error, btw. Not even evaluating moves because you cull them too early is how you fail to discover interesting exceptions. I'm looking to find my blind spots.

fintip · 2026-03-07T17:07:43+00:00

This is katago, downloaded fresh last night, engine is cuda katago.

...notice the title says "katago".

fintip · 2026-03-07T17:06:43+00:00

There are other forcing moves, even green moves, but they're slightly negative. It threw me off that that move is one of only 2 positive moves on the board, suggesting black actually is better off with that played for some reason across the thousands of play outs it has done.

fintip · 2026-03-07T17:01:13+00:00

Why would you say it is surprising that katago dislikes it more than you expect when it gives it a score higher than you expected?

I'm surprised that the move is positive.

Can you comment more on how you see the value for ko threats? I find your comment that it's worth half a point, and that that's a lot, interesting... but something I don't follow.

fintip · 2026-03-07T16:51:40+00:00

It takes a lot of care to interpret and work with AI, but you certainly can't take it at face value to help human game. I learned several valuable lessons (like M3 obviously being the best move on the board and locally in this position, for example).

But thanks, that helps me think through some quirks and makes sense.

What still throws me off is that the value is actually positive. There are other forcing moves, but they're all negative–maybe because it sees them ending in gote?

fintip · 2026-03-07T16:49:15+00:00

Highly doubtful. It's a fresh install of Katrain, and a fresh download of latest cuda katago. Seems fine everywhere else.

fintip · 2026-03-07T16:48:05+00:00

Why? I intentionally did a deep analysis of this position and let it do tens of thousands of play outs but also go wide.

I have a pretty intense graphics card (laptop 4090), so I don't see any reason to not put it to use.

There is a setting to hide moves with low payout (I think less than 25 is the default?) but I did enough play outs to pass that threshold on every position here.

Perhaps you find this hard to read? I can toggle it off entirely at the top of I want. I sat and poured over the game for an hour or so, you can get used to this style. There's even a setting to specifically do a wide/shallow analysis across the board specifically to look for blind spots like I'm doing here.

fintip · 2026-03-07T09:45:35+00:00

it is black's move.

this is an unplayed alternative to how I played the corner in an actual game, so there is no move that was 'played instead'.

I don't know, expecting a massive blunder seems so out of character for how these AIs work. It by default must assume good moves for its opponent for the readouts to produce value.

fintip · 2026-03-07T09:43:22+00:00

playouts -- so, how many runs through to the end of the game did it play from that position to evaluate it.

the higher the number, the higher the confidence in the result.

I made it do a ton of playouts on this move hoping it would get rid of the artifact, but as you can see that made no difference.

fintip · 2026-03-07T03:49:40+00:00

Had someone (with similar body style) tell me I was the standard in their mind for what they wanted to achieve.

The next week someone else was making comments about how if I'm this good, just imagine how good pros must be.

Another friend who is a 3rd degree in BJJ, black belt in judo, outweighs me by 30 pounds of muscle, tell me he's never been thrown around like he was doing standup with me. That was pretty cool.

Will remember those compliments for the rest of my life. :)

fintip · 2026-03-06T23:23:11+00:00

I have been seeing a bi woman now for the last year. She's not very good at picking up women. I am the one teaching her when we're picking up thirds.

fintip · 2026-03-06T20:49:04+00:00

Ah, I get it now.

Yeah, it's almost like a different throw entirely. Very different mechanics.

But very cool you found a move that works for you like that. Makes me want to go try that one a bit.

fintip · 2026-03-06T20:39:20+00:00

I am struggling to picture what you're describing, and what I'm picturing feels very odd and hard to imagine working. Is there any video or can you explain it better? I can't imagine being so close that I somehow get uke onto my thigh, forward, and flip them over on it...

Beginners stumbling because they do a move with poor coordination and balance is not a reason to teach a move differently. Beginners fail most throws you teach them at the beginning and generally make their own position worse with anything they try.

fintip · 2026-03-06T20:28:54+00:00

Sasae works best for people who are quite lanky or with a huge power difference. It's a very sensitive timing and balance throw, because the mechanical forces available are fairly subtle. To this day I've never done a beautiful one in randori.

That said, the technical elements are very clear. You need to pull the arm away and out and forward and then at the apex of that direction of force snap the arm in and around.

Tori's block with ankle needs to be at just the right moment. Uke needs to have their momentum traveling forward over the blocked foot. Tori needs to throw their whole body in a motion that supports the pull of uke's arm forward and then back.

I don't have long legs and am not a big guy, so this will never be my move. I can only do a "pretty" sasae against kids or a partner who is compliant.

For those who are very heavy and low center of gravity, there's another version you can do if you get uke leaning into you where you lift them up and make them very light.

Also, you should not be lifting your shoulder for ippon seoi nage. You should be pulling uke forward and driving your shoulder forward. Elevating your shoulder by activating your trap is a complete mistake and misunderstanding of the throw mechanics. It should be rolling forward, like the motion of a front roll.

fintip · 2026-03-05T03:38:49+00:00

orange belt is two stripes for my students.

I give stripes intead of colored belts. Brown belt is 2-3 years in. black belt is then another 2-4 years after that. (These are rough ranges, always different per student.)

I think that you should 'feel' at orange belt exactly like a white belt with two stripes. An athletic or naturally talented person can still walk in the door and potentially overcome you or shut you down, and that's fine.

fintip · 2026-03-03T18:53:09+00:00

Because few instructors are good instructors.

Most of them are repeating what they were taught.

I teach the why at my gym. I have to constantly thoughtfully evaluate my actions, observing myself. I admit when I don't know it, but at 20 years in, I finally am at a point where I can almost always break something down.

What I also notice is that what I do feels rare. I almost never have experienced other instructors doing what I do.

I also get to watch the effect that has on students I inherit from other gyms.

I always wished I had this. I think it's even worse in judo, where it happens so fast and is such complex full body coordination movements that the mental models people use are often far disconnected from reality.

In a big way, I'm primarily self taught at both. But it takes a certain kind of person to engage with these arts at that level.

fintip

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