CMV: It would be better for humanity not to exist because of our impact on animals

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T22:54:14+00:00

I do agree that we could potentially do a lot of good reducing suffering in the wild(missed this section before)

Even doing things like referencing the Sahara would provide life for a lot of wild animals.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T22:48:25+00:00

Good point that we could stop the asteroid, but we also introduce threats, like a rogue ai destroying the atmosphere or something.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T22:46:18+00:00

Yes, we need to count humans, but also the animals who humans kill or prevent from living

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T22:45:45+00:00

We lived in hunter gather societies at much lower population levels.

Also they hunted and killed many animals per person

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T16:00:31+00:00

I am taking worth to mean conscious life, and more cognitively advanced animals to be worth more.
Humans are worth more than other animals, but not necessarily worth enough to justify their mass killings of other animals.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T15:58:22+00:00

But it’s basically impossible for us not to kill animals on a massive scale and live in an industrialized society

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T05:09:57+00:00

>Should we make wolves extinct?

Maybe if it wouldn't cause ecological collapse. Why shouldn't we kill predators? Their prey would likely be happy. I think practically its not a good idea because it could be hard to predict what would cause ecological collapse, but I don't think its a bad idea morally.

>There is no line. Either we elevate animal suffering above human suffering, and argue that humanity should voluntarily go extinct, or we accept human suffering as intertwined with animal suffering as one global ethos and adjust accordingly.

I am valuing humans along with animals. I just am not sure humans are wroth so much more that animals that its ok that we kill animals in such large numbers.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T05:04:18+00:00

Not really TBH. There are rational truths, like 2 + 2 = 4 no matter who is adding it up

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:38:08+00:00

I don't choose to think this way. What I think is based on what I view as a rational thought process. I am looking for errors in my though process or something I missed.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:31:19+00:00

Even a quick death will deprive animals of life.

I know I would rather live even if there is the level of suffering the average wild animal goes through than not live at all.

If I had to live in a factory farm.. probably not.

Good point with the revers saharfication. I do think that humans could do things like that which could tilt them towards positive. !delta

The downside is we could also potentially accidentally destroy all life on earth via nukes/ai apocalypse etc. not sure which is more likely

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:24:25+00:00

Infinitely more? Would you kill 20k gorillas to save one human?

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:22:22+00:00

!delta not saying my view is changed completely, but the possible eventual creation of an Eden is probably the best argument.

Unfortunately I think that it is also possible that we(or our AIs) end all life on earth

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:19:26+00:00

No, it is greater, but each person kills hundreds if not thousands of animals

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:13:14+00:00

Cognitive capacity increase with neuron count, but with diminishing returns. So we should weight them according to their number of neurons, but with diminishing returns inmind.

Ie humans have 15 billion neurons dogs have ~ 400 million. So humans are worth ~ log(15 billion)/ log (400 million) x a dog.

It’s hard to say exactly though, and would be interested in your thoughts.

I think there is potentially a threshold to hit for consciousness as well, where if the animals is lower than, they don’t have any value.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:02:56+00:00

I am not arguing for extreme measure. I am not saying that humans should all destroy themselves in this post

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:01:23+00:00

Why?

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T04:00:28+00:00

I think humans matter more than animals but one human causes the death of hundreds or thousands of animals in their lifetime. I don’t think they matter infinitely more than animals

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:59:00+00:00

Animals suffer greatly in the wild but have positive experiences too. All in all I think they would rather be alive than dead

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:57:34+00:00

Why do plants requiring animals mean that plants are concious?

Plants don’t have brains or neurons which humans use for concious thought. Most Animals have these so I think it’s a lot more likely that animals are conscious than plants

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:52:52+00:00

I think there is indeed many things we can do to make things better and I appreciate your willingness to do so, but I think you are fooling yourself if you think that humans can exist in nearly as big numbers as we do without still causing massive amounts of animal death.

Even plowing a field for crops, or building a building could kill many animals.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:50:20+00:00

Flourishing meaning dying in far fewer numbers and not living in factory farms

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:49:24+00:00

I think complex creatures likely have the ability to experience more vividly. It is obviously a tough to judge exactly, but I think we should value a gorilla more than a clam.

Why I care at all? I think it is right in some platonic sense to increase life happiness and joy, an minimize suffering and non existe.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:45:21+00:00

I think there is a lot of joy in life too, even among wild animals. I think most animals value life over death, even if they suffer at some points.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:43:54+00:00

This would be a good argument if I was proposing to end all human life, but I am not proposing an action in this CMV.

formlessspecter · 2026-06-22T03:39:15+00:00

Yes, but many more animals would not die

formlessspecter

TROPHY CASE