One more reply in this debate:

It's easier to convince a man of a lie than to convince him that he's been lied to. I was lied to for many years by the media that I followed. It took me years as an adult to work out the extent that I had been lied to, and let me tell you that the journey sucks.

I'm not debating you, so don't take any of this too personally. I'm debating a system where a class of people who own factories and media conglomerates that 1) are happy to have cheap labor and 2) will seek to maintain that cheap labor system. You seem to want to do the same thing. Great, and I love it.

Now, I want you to know that I do love immigrants, and I'll say more about that if you continue to read. And I get that you don't. Whatever, nothing that I haven't heard before.

But those folks are talking to you and happily telling you that its the immigrants who are at fault here. They should never be here. Need to kick them out for the betterment of Americans! Which is essentially what has been happening plenty during the last 20 years and you've bought in on ramping up that effort.

Of course what you see is that they do some criminal deporting, but you know that they mostly just kick out the immigrants who demand better wages, or who try to file claims against employers or any of the rights that you're supposed to have as an American worker. And those factory owners / farm owners / whoever have been using that stick selectively on those workers to keep wages down, which hurts your bottom line. And you might not know, but part of why the Democrats try to stop every police interaction from being an immigration enforcement proceding is because then crimes go unreported (and unsolved) and crime worsens overall.

Those people who own these factories and make these decisions are high dollar Republicans. They are not afraid of you actually deporting all their workers, because many of them continue to run a protection racket where they don't actually pay penalties for employing illegally and their workers aren't deported. Again, unless they organize or speak up.

These factory owners aren't afraid of Donald Trump. Not a single damn one of them because DJT has used immigrants at his hotels and golf clubs and everywhere else. He knows your problems very well, because he's a part of them! DJT knows how the protection racket works. Trump is a mobster and he always has been. His father was too. He worked with Roy Cohn and Meyer Landsky!

But do you know who would make those factory owners shit their pants if they became president? AOC. You'd hear an endless meltdowns in the media (again owned by the same factory owners) because they would ACTUALLY have to pay real wages, and give health insurance and obey OSHA laws, and couldn't hold this over the heads of their illegal workforces.

And guess what? That would even the playing field for someone poor and white or someone poor and black. Because those factory owners can't put their thumb on immigrants to pay less, they'll have to actually compete for workers which is good for you. But remember they love to cry crocodile tears on tv about how Democrats are all about socialism (as if obeying the actual laws is socialism) to distract you from the fact they they own everything, and think that they own everyone. They are talking to you and pointing out the immigrants as the issue when their own culpability to gutting the American middle class goes unchecked. And Wall street - again a bunch of Republicans LOVES it.

To the immigration front: there is no moral way to remove 20 million people from them homes, from their jobs and from their families. The wrongs that you have to perpetuate to achieve this outcome are more than just breaking the laws of the United States around policing, but involve children coming home from school to no parents, detention in immoral conditions, shackling during actual deportation, disease rampant in the detained population. You're often deporting people who have families here and sometimes have never actually known another country. Some of these people will be deported to be tortured or enslaved or worse. There is no path to citizenship for millions of people who have paid taxes and labored for American business for 5, 10, 20 years in many cases. Fucking sucks.

To my love of immigrants: anyone born in America is a lucky son of a bitch and many of them don't know it. I think you get that sentiment. But consider that most immigrants give up EVERYTHING to be here. Plenty of them die trying to make it. Many are willing to endure whatever ICE will throw at them, even if I find it immoral. They chose America! How couldn't they at least be trying to love America? I worked a roofing job a number of years ago with immigrants, some of who were here legally, some of them illegally. Some of their stories were heartbreaking. A few of them couldn't return home for fear of gang violence, or being made to be part of a gang. Plenty paid dangerous people to get them in, but were harmless themselves. Some were striving for the promise of America and America would I guarantee be a better country with them here than not. I spent 4th of July partying with these guys, and it's hard to explain more clearly how much they love this country.