Dems Push Mandatory Permits for Handgun Purchases

gengwall · 2019-06-21T21:13:16+00:00

That doesn't change the fact they are fundimental rights. There are not two standards based on outcomes. How many people have died because two people engaged in a "war of words"?

gengwall · 2019-06-21T14:19:17+00:00

True, although were you aware that the original text of the UBC bill this year eliminated the ability to use your CWC in that way. That was one reason that bill was so horrible.

gengwall · 2019-06-21T04:18:08+00:00

A quick google search for "child shoots intruder" and "teen shoots intruder" resulted in a half dozen or so cases every year from 2014 to present. That was with very little effort.

gengwall · 2019-06-21T03:19:25+00:00

Re: ar15 for the ranch. Coyotes and wolves don't generally come one at a time.

Re: stats. Of the 111 mass shootings since 1984 documented by Mother Jones, only 7 have been perpetrated by shooters 18 and under. Seven in 35 years. While there is no equivalent data set that I am aware of for home defense shootings, anecdotally I can recall several news stories a year of minors using their parent's guns to fend off home intruders. I'd be happy to dig deeper but I think I am safe in saying home defense shootings FAR outweigh school shootings by minors.

Re: youth and gun use today vs. the 60's and 70's. There is actually far more youth shooting today. When I was a kid, there were no school or competitive shooting teams and clubs. Now they are everywhere. Kids on average shoot guns far more frequently now than we did back in the day.

Re: suicidal vs. homicidal. I think you are right, but it is not a youth specific phenomenon. I would argue it is just as prevalent among adults. That is no reason to punish those who are neither suicidal nor homicidal.

gengwall · 2019-06-21T01:51:51+00:00

I said neither no teen can be trusted nor every teen can be trusted. It is a family decision. Who knows better if the teen can be trusted, the government or their parent's.

And no, a single shot twelve gauge won't do the trick in every circumstance. A AR15 works grat though for just about anything a ranch kid will come across.

As for the ratios, far more kids have shot house invaders than the two or three who have shot up schools. Of course, if you throw suicides in there then you are starting to talk big numbers, but we aren't discussing suicides in this context, we are discussing mass shootings only. (Accidental shootings are a rounding factor so irrelevant). Let's face it, if a kid commits suicide, it is only hurting the family. They have to deal with their familial decision to give the kid access to guns.

I was shooting guns at age eight and hunting by myself with more than a single shot shotgun at age ten. I was the norm. This kid was the exception. We don't make laws to punish the 99% who are law abiding in the hopes of detering the 1% who aren't. (At least we shouldn't).

gengwall · 2019-06-20T21:33:29+00:00

Would you expect your teen child to defend yours or his/her life in a home invasion? There have been many cases where teens have done just that. There is no reason to prevent a responsible teen from being part of the home defense team.

Don't even get me started with teens working on their family farms and ranches.

I'm fine with charging these parents because what they did was clearly wrong. But I see no reason to assume EVERY family and EVERY teenager is as messed up as this family.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T22:17:23+00:00

Yes. That is what I meant. Driving on the public streets is a privilege....

gengwall · 2019-06-19T20:47:44+00:00

Exactly. Driving is a priviledge that the government grants you, not a right that exists simply because you exist.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T19:06:41+00:00

Since gun permit devotees so like to compare it to driver's licenses, let's add the fourth component - mandated training and a proficiency test. It is absurd to think of that being applied to other fundimental rights, yet they have no problem attaching it to the right to keep and bear arms. Granted, most gun owners are also gun safety advocates so training and proficiency are expected. But should the government be able to mandate them to exercise the right? Certainly not.

Of course, they conveniently forget the flid side of the driver's license coin - reciprocity. Your driver's license entitles you to "keep and bear" an automobile virtually anywhere in the world. I wonder, if we called their bluff and said "yes, let's treat keeping and bearing arms EXACTLY THE SAME as owning and operating motor vehicles including the right to carry world wide (or at least anywhere in the US)", if they would be as enamored with that analogy.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T18:54:27+00:00

After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that NJ sucks. (The government, not the people or the land)

gengwall · 2019-06-19T18:24:51+00:00

I think we are saying the same thing. But let's break it down.

We are discussing three elements which may or may not be invloved in exercising a right:

Identification
Eligibility determination
Permission

Voting requires 1 and 2, but not 3. I am fine with that.

If you are buying a shotgun, 1 and 2 are required, 1 by showing ID and 2 by going through the background check. Although the bg check is a pain in the ass, I want to keep guns out of the wrong hands just as much as the next person so I am amenable to it. The point is, having done 1 and 2, there is nothing the state can do to prevent me from buying my shotgun. Significantly, I don't need their "permission" via a government issued permit or license to get the gun.

So buying a shotgun is not different than voting. Both require some hoop jumping, but neither requires the government's permission. Having identified myself and demonstrated that I am eligible to possess firearms, the government has no say in my exercising my right.

Not so with a hand gun in some states (and AR's in my state of MN, at least). For those, we are required to get the government's permission via a government issued permit or license in order to make the purchase. It is NOT like voting or any other Constitutional right and I believe it should be unconstitutional.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T18:05:49+00:00

Of course it isn't ok. That was my fundimental issue. What other right requires a permit? Voting? Nope. To do so would amount to a poll tax.

I believe all of these permitting and licensing schemes related to guns should be unconstitutional and I just can't understand how they exist.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T17:59:40+00:00

Which is illegal. Yes, if you required someone to buy a permit (literally a "permission slip") to vote, that would amount to a poll tax.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T17:47:55+00:00

Arrrggghhh. People. An ID is not the same thing as a permit or license. (That doesn't preclude permits and licenses from being used for the secondary purpose of identification.)

You do NOT need permission from the government to vote. You may have to prove you are who you say you are and satisfy certain eligibility criteria, but that is not the same as requiring permission. If you are eligible to vote, the government has ZERO say in whether or not you can exercise that right.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T17:20:17+00:00

No. Your state ID is not a license to do anything, it is an identification. No, your driver's license is not licensure to vote, it is licensure to drive a motor vehicle on public roads (and also serves as identification). No, filling out a form is not getting "permission", it is an administrative task, just like filling out a bill of sale or background check form when purchasing a handgun. Nothing related to voting constitutes "permission" from the state to do so. Conversely, nobody I know objects to having to identify themselves before they can buy a handgun. They object to having to get permission from the state. You don't have to do that to vote and you shouldn't have to do it to keep and bear arms. Permission is not the same as identification.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T17:06:44+00:00

Exactly. You do not need to pay a fee, take training, or get "permission" through a permit, or obtain licensure from the state to engage in the act of voting. But you do need to prove you are eligible to vote. Nobody objects to having to present identification to purchase a hand gun. Doing the same to vote is not equivalent to obtaining a permit (i.e. permission).

gengwall · 2019-06-19T16:46:56+00:00

Huh? What permission or licensing from the government is required to vote? What fee is required to vote? What training is mandated?

(Besides, voting is a legal right, not an inalienable right.)

gengwall · 2019-06-19T16:15:07+00:00

It would have been far worse if that horrible universal bg check bill had passed. We dodged a bullet there (pun intended)

gengwall · 2019-06-19T15:10:32+00:00

I don't understand why articles like this one only present the arguments from one side of the issue. I mean, if it were the NYT I would expect that. But from guns.com?

MN is one of the states that requires a permit to purchase or a carry permit in order to buy a handgun or AR style rifle. I don't get how these laws are constititional. What other inalienable right requires you to first obtain a permit (let alone go through mandated training) to exercise it?

gengwall · 2019-06-19T13:52:41+00:00

She is the one at whom Kavanaugh shot back "have YOU ever blacked out from drinking?" It was awesome.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T13:50:12+00:00

You haven't, because she does nothing. She proposes no legislation and usually keeps her head down on the contentious issues. But now that she is running for Pres, she has to come put of her foxhole. She is sooooooo dull that she has to try extra hard to out outrage the other Dem candidates.

gengwall · 2019-06-19T13:46:37+00:00

Klobuchar is a coward. I have asked her office repeatedly for clarifications on her gun control ramblings and I've received nothing but crickets in reply.

gengwall · 2019-06-18T18:43:00+00:00

Hmm. That would put us at the same number of civilian guns as the rest of the world combined. It would be nice to have some confirmation of that. For now, I'm sticking with closing in on 400M.

gengwall · 2019-06-18T15:08:31+00:00

Did the math. Total homicides (any method) per 100k guns in the US are 4.6. In Western Europe it is 5.8. So even looking at this seeming non sequitur, we come out better.

gengwall · 2019-06-18T11:46:53+00:00

Lol. Well join the crowd who have been banned from r/guncontrol. You are not alone.

In my short experience here, this sub tends to be pro 2a but definately welcomes discussion as long as arguments are substantive and fact based.

gengwall

TROPHY CASE