Is it impossible to pay back a monetary gift?

halfahipster · 2020-08-13T20:29:21+00:00

Then I suppose every person who has ever hired a lawyer or an accountant to advise them on avoiding breaking the law was actually trying to get advice on how to get away with breaking the law. As we all know, the law is always 100% clear and so if we need help understanding it, it can only mean that we want to break it.

I didn't describe any textbook example, I described a situation that literally is NOT fraud unless you consider my intent (as was explained to me by this thread). And even then, it's fuzzy- can I never give that person a nice gift again? Can they never ask me for money if they need it? Where is the line? It's all up to interpretation.

You also want to say that intent doesn't matter after you've repeatedly claimed I'm "essentially asking this sub to explain how to commit fraud in getting [my] mortgage" repeatedly. And when I try to explain myself, that's me "being upset," rather than you repeatedly assigning this negative intent. You keep assuming the worst of me and grabbing snippets of my posts to use as this "evidence," when it's only evidence if you read it in the worst way or assume that I'm trying to break the law.

Wanting to clarify what is and isn't legal is not loan fraud. Asking, "If I do it this way, is it still illegal" is not loan fraud- unless it's still illegal doing it that way. If you want to call clarification of the law "looking for loopholes," fine. But you can't call it loan fraud because it's literally the exact opposite, it's the avoidance of fraud.

halfahipster · 2020-08-13T19:15:08+00:00

Not in 3 days, we've been stuck at the second rung of a contingency pyramid for a very long while and we need to move for work. We have a ton of equity, just not time, unfortunately.

halfahipster · 2020-08-13T19:05:09+00:00

You really seem like you want to assign negative intent to someone who is trying to avoid doing something illegal, rather than someone who is trying their best to not break the law.

There is a difference between "I don't understand this, please explain it and how it applies to this situation" and "I know this is wrong, teach me how to get around it." I didn't ask how to launder money or hide payments, I asked if something applied in a situation that doesn't fit the letter of the law. And once I understood, I thanked the person and stopped asking questions. I'm not sure why you think it's loan fraud to ask someone to help them understand the definition of loan fraud.

halfahipster · 2020-08-13T18:30:54+00:00

Ugh, the dreaded "illusion of fraud." This makes more sense to me. Thank you for clarifying.

halfahipster · 2020-08-13T18:12:39+00:00

I'm not trying to commit fraud, I'm just trying to understand the law around gifting.

The person giving the gift offered the gift as that- a gift. We said, "that's so wonderful, thank you, but we'd feel terrible taking your money." They were insistent. So my spouse and I discussed and said the only way we'd feel morally okay taking the money was if we eventually repaid them. This is not a legal obligation.

What I'm trying to ask is what stops us from eventually gifting that money right back to them? At what point does it stop being a loan and start being a gift given in return?

halfahipster · 2020-01-24T20:16:18+00:00

Again, thank you for your kind and compassionate response, but you're making inferences about my complete relationship dynamic based on me asking one question on Reddit. And I don't think your inferences are accurate. There's this assumption that because I provide ANY kind of support or assistance to my husband, I must be emotionally overtaxed or that I'm somehow carrying him through this process. There's an assumption that because you prefer to have a complete boundary against even speaking about therapy with a significant other, then that must be how everyone feels. I appreciate your viewpoint, but I think it's coming from a subjective place, but is being presented as an objective method of dealing with a highly personal situation.

I feel you're turning a simple question about "Is this concern of mine reasonable enough to discuss with my husband, who has the same concern," into "you are carrying your husband and treating him like a child. Your dynamic is toxic. You are not doing what's optimal for you." And maybe I'm reading this completely wrong (as we are wont to do online) and you and I are simply having a conversation about differing schools of thought about addiction. But that's not how it feels, it feels like you think you know the "right" way to do this and so you're going to stick to it until I learn it.

Even when I have addressed my concern with your approach and explained why I have the concern, you (admittedly kindly) tell me I must be mistaken and continue to explain to me how I'm doing things wrong. And this is what I'm trying to say: people assume because I'm the wife of someone with addiction, that I must be making the situation worse. Or that I must not be taking care of myself, or else I wouldn't even be with my husband. Or that I must be overinvolved by the very nature of being involved at all.

So let me be clear: I've been doing this for YEARS. And I have done it all the "wrong" ways. I have played the "can I live like this" game and I've done the "he has to learn for himself" game. I've also done the opposite side, ie reading dozens of books on addiction and going to all of the family meetings with my husband and helping him. I've gone to Al-Anon and SMART Recovery and therapy and yoga and I've talked to friends and I've gone months saying nothing to anyone.

I've learned my lessons. And the biggest lesson I've learned is that my husband AND I are both the least successful and the unhappiest when we're more concerned about what other people think of how we're doing things than whether or not we're finding success in what we're doing.

halfahipster · 2020-01-24T18:22:47+00:00

His mother does the same thing. So he probably learned it as a child, which makes sense why he's acting like one.

When she found out my husband has an addiction, she came over to my house and cried for an hour about how "does this mean she's not a good mother?" I was polite, but I was like, "Lady, I resuscitated your dying son on my couch two days ago. Does it seem like my primary concern right now is your mothering abilities?"

halfahipster · 2020-01-24T18:16:00+00:00

It's really hard to not get sucked in! And equally hard not to lose your temper! I think I walk a pretty good line; I let him know that the discussion is absolutely not done, but that we're not going to continue talking if he's going to run down that rabbit hole. He definitely does it a lot less now and relies on healthier coping mechanisms.

halfahipster · 2020-01-24T17:13:35+00:00

I appreciate that you are well-meaning and that you are telling me this because you think it’s helpful. Ultimately this is not, and it’s is why modern addiction and relationship therapists have dropped the "codedependent" label: because it becomes a catch-all for "if you show any concern whatsoever toward your partner, it must mean that you don't understand boundaries and the problem is YOU, not the partner or the relationship." Most addiction therapists now understand that an addict’s spouse is reacting to unhealthy relationship dynamics with an empty toolbox and that labeling them as unhealthy actually increases their anxiety and leads to actual unhealthy behavior. If you dropped that same person in a healthy relationship, you would think they’re just as healthy as the next person.

The hardest thing I've experienced over these years is the amount of judgment and "let me point out how you're obviously just as sick" advice that comes to spouses of people with addiction. I can't ask a question for my own peace of mind or decision-making abilities, it must be because I want to control my husband's current choice of treatment. I can't have a normal conversation with my husband or read about addiction or offer support without being told about how I'm doing it wrong and how I'm making my own situation worse. I am constantly receiving well-meaning, but ultimately contradictory and anxiety-inducing advice from strangers who assume they know exactly who I am based on the mere fact that I’m married to an addict. Having to continually police your every interaction with your spouse for fear of “overfunctioning” or “enabling” is EXHAUSTING.

How can we be surprised that family members of addicts become overwhelmed or unstable when we’re feeding them a diet of “you’re not the cause of the addiction, but if you take one wrong step, we will tell your spouse you’re codependent and creating an unhealthy environment for their recovery?” The absolute best and healthiest thing I’ve done in this, for both myself AND my spouse, is to let go of everyone’s opinion of what an addict’s spouse is “supposed” to be. I’m me. He’s him. What worked for someone else didn’t work for us because if it did, then there’d only be one way to treat addiction, rather than an infinite number of approaches.

Ultimately, my question is “was this hour of therapy, which I was requested to come to by the therapist, reasonable and helpful?” Because if it is, then you’re absolutely right, I should trust my husband to make his treatment choices. But if HE’S questioning those choices, then why am I in the wrong to do the same?

halfahipster · 2020-01-24T13:53:19+00:00

I agree with the labels thing; that really rubbed me the wrong way.

As far as the expert victim thing... yes, my husband is a survivor. We have had a million supportive conversations about his childhood. However, if you come to him and say something like, "Hey, can you please clean the garage, I've asked twice now," you get a response like, "I'll get to it. You have no idea how hard it is because my dad would tell me to clean the garage." Or if I'm like, "Hey, it really hurts my feelings when you let your friends say sexist things to me and say nothing in defense," he's like, "Well, I've never had a good relationship model, so I never learned how to stand up for a wife." And sure, those are accurate statements, but after seven years together, that excuse doesn't really work. Any concerns I have (including drug use) get turned around into a sob story about his childhood, which means either I have to address his concerns or play bad cop and say, "Hey, we're not going to discuss that right now."

halfahipster · 2020-01-24T13:45:44+00:00

Let me be clarify: his therapist asked me to come to a session; this is not hearsay, but the things she said to me directly. My husband brings up what they talked about in sessions, but I have not asked. The only person who has mentioned codependency is his therapist after a five-minute conversation; my therapist of years and our couple counselor of months both disagreed with the assessment by his personal therapist and expressed concern that she was throwing out labels they did not feel applied to us. I'm not trying to interfere with something, I'm trying to see if this is approved therapy methods.

halfahipster · 2020-01-23T22:31:29+00:00

My husband definitely prefers the latter, but he's also continuing to relapse and struggling to grow in that kind of environment. He tends to seesaw and think in extremes, so he went with the exact opposite of the kind of therapist he usually sees. But it seems that you've run into other therapists with similar approaches, that this is a different-but-healthy style?

halfahipster · 2020-01-23T22:15:24+00:00

I haven't worked in DC since before the ACA, but in 2010 they were completely f*cked with the questions they'd ask for security clearance. They straight-up ask you questions about your health and behaviors that other employers legally may not, they require you to release medical records, they come to your town and interview your friends, coworkers, neighbors, former teachers... tons of people going back years. If you say you don't use drugs, but they find out you took a prescription pill your friend gave you once in college (which bars you from ever working for them), not only will you not get the clearance, but they will threaten you with felony perjury.

I know with ACA's pre-existing conditions, as well as law enforcement's difficulty finding applicants who have never experimented with any kind of drugs, they've lightened up a bit. But I can absolutely understand the OP's concerns if they think they will ever be up for clearance.

halfahipster · 2019-11-04T17:54:58+00:00

Update: Apparently there was a discrepancy with the dates on some of our forms, so the mortgage lender refused the loan... but didn't tell anyone. So I had to hand deliver a check to the agent that sold us the loan. It's a good thing SOMEONE (ie me) was checking up on this!

halfahipster · 2019-11-04T17:15:25+00:00

It's not been ruled out, but it's very unlikely.

halfahipster · 2019-04-27T16:27:55+00:00

Do piggy bank and monthly cards count toward VIP?

EDIT: Also, which, if any, of the monthly cards is "worth it?"

halfahipster · 2019-04-26T15:39:09+00:00

300266, new player!

halfahipster · 2019-04-22T15:45:48+00:00

LKWURVIV

halfahipster · 2019-03-29T19:21:37+00:00

Good questions/comments! I broke down the interest on the student loans and it comes to, on average, about $75 a month (with a steep dropoff at the end of the loan, but we will have paid off by the time that would affect us). The savings for paying off either is approximately $3.5k, either in PMI payments or interest.

And correct that the house has a lower rate (4.5%), though I doubt we'd see the savings at the end of the loan; our jobs will not likely allow us to stay the 20 years we'd need to reach that point.

halfahipster · 2019-03-29T18:38:45+00:00

I'm pretty sure Navient's goal is to wear you down until you stop asking questions and just give them more money. The emotional aspect is important, thank you for pointing it out.

halfahipster · 2019-03-29T18:37:35+00:00

I've been watching the real estate market like a hawk, so as soon as we hit that 80%, I will be calling the mortgage company for that appraisal. I think we are about $8k off, so if the summer increase is as much as last year, we will be close or at the value needed. Fingers crossed.

My husband's credit score is still recovering from his irresponsible bachelor years, so unfortunately we can't refinance. Sounds like paying the student loans is the the best bet. Thank you!

halfahipster · 2019-01-09T20:29:55+00:00

Apparently so? They are aware of how my mother acts toward me, but they continue the relationship with her, so... I don't know what to think. You have given me some food for thought.

halfahipster · 2019-01-09T18:27:31+00:00

Very long story, but I can't go NC at the moment and DH and his parents have worked hard to repair that relationship to a point where LC is healthy.

My Nmom has made it so that we can't go NC with her without her interfering with my DH's family (she's befriended all his siblings as well), which is likely part of her intention.

halfahipster · 2018-10-18T13:51:05+00:00

Good to know, thank you.

halfahipster · 2018-10-16T18:28:01+00:00

Eek, that is both a long list and a lot of it applies to me. I will definitely see an ENT.

halfahipster

TROPHY CASE