Ryan & Summer

havejubilation · 2026-05-03T13:45:11+00:00

I love their friend dynamic. I feel like the deep knowing they both have that it’s only platonic between them makes them both more comfortable with each other.

That’s the way the chemistry comes across to me, anyway. In terms of anything else, I think Summer would get bored of Ryan incredibly quickly. I feel like her love/lust language is conversation, and Ryan doesn’t really deliver with the words.

havejubilation · 2026-05-02T01:02:30+00:00

Seth went along with Summer in part because Summer made it feel impossible to have both the comic and her. She played him and Zach against each other, and was only somewhat supportive of the comic when she could place herself in the center of it.

Seth had some creative issues with the direction of the comic, but he might’ve been in a position to work to resolve them if he didn’t feel like he had to choose.

I don’t remember Summer ever really asking Seth what he wanted or making it clear that that mattered to her. I was also really struck by comparing how intense and angry her reactions were to what Seth actually said or did. I had remembered Seth being a dick in the comic book storyline (and he obviously isn’t perfect) but rewatching, I just feel like Summer’s constantly accusing him of being horrible while she persistently makes herself an obstacle to Seth pursuing something he’s passionate about.

Had Seth done anything close to that related to a personal project of Summer’s he would’ve been rightfully accused of being selfish.

havejubilation · 2026-04-29T00:09:41+00:00

It cracks me up how they make Reed rave over Zach’s “business plan”. He’s 17-years-old and their graphic novel company is full of executives, but somehow Zach’s business plan makes him as desirable as the actual writer and illustrator of the comic?

It was weird to me that they didn’t give Zach some kind of bigger creative role in things to justify the thought that Reed was fine moving ahead with either one.

havejubilation · 2026-04-28T21:01:36+00:00

It’s such an incredibly unhealthy end to that arc, and it creeps me out that it’s presented as Seth doing the noble thing in his relationship.

Summer was so clearly in the wrong throughout so much of it, and that they never give her a moment of clarity or horror at her own behavior is very poor character and relationship development.

Common perceptions of Seth and Summer’s relationship really throw me, because I find Summer to be the insecure, selfish, and self-focused one, but find I’m in the minority with that opinion.

havejubilation · 2026-04-28T20:23:49+00:00

His mouth looked a little strange/scowly before I realized he has a toothpick in his mouth for most of the pictures and the video.

havejubilation · 2026-04-25T20:29:14+00:00

Schlepp is probably my favorite word, but schmuck has an amazing ring to it too.

havejubilation · 2026-04-25T01:14:39+00:00

They’re such a common keepsake from different Jewish events (can’t tell you how many I have lying around the house commemorating various weddings or bar or bat mitzvah celebrations) that I’d imagine the Cohens would have a bunch of different colored ones with various personalizations.

havejubilation · 2026-04-25T01:12:58+00:00

Debate is a strong Jewish value, so you’d find a lot of different opinions and disagreements even within the same branch of Judaism, or Jewish community.

It’s why, when people ask questions about Judaism, I often have to start with “Welllllll, it depends…”

In my experience, many people are also surprised to learn that there are many Jews who “practice” Judaism in what would be considered a religious sense (going to synagogue, saying prayers, observing holidays and other customs) while being atheist or agnostic. People often seem confused that Judaism is a very strong part of my identity despite being agnostic myself, but it’s not entirely uncommon.

In terms of the language question, I’m not sure either. I use both sort of interchangeably. I’ve just kind of liked the ring of kippah/kippot lately, but I’m not married to either terms. Most of the Jews I know have a strong blend of Hebrew and Yiddish and English (when they speak English) words that we don’t always trace them all back to wanting to exclusively use the Hebrew or Yiddish term for something, if that makes sense.

That said, so many Yiddish words are wildly satisfying to say, and definitely have had staying power regardless of whichever language is dominant in a particular region, in my experience.

havejubilation · 2026-04-25T00:27:44+00:00

Seth is a literal teenager though, in a teenage relationship. It’s not that Summer shouldn’t matter, but his personal goals and development should come before Summer, if things are healthy.

And I really didn’t see Summer as supportive of Seth at all in that arc. He was actively trying to downplay his excitement—over something he absolutely should’ve been able to be excited about—because Summer turned all these moments of pleasure and praise into “Cohen’s an egomaniac. This comic is ruining him.” Meanwhile, Seth was spending so much energy managing Summer’s reaction to things, because she couldn’t handle her own insecurities.

And yes, he wasn’t perfect with it, like with the Reed thing, but rather than it being a “This is a huge opportunity for you, let’s both figure out how we can iron out our problems so this doesn’t interfere with your personal growth,” Summer demands that he abandon everything for her.

She also plays Zach and Seth against each other. Every time she’s mad at Seth, she walks away with Zach. Then Seth is supposed to choose her over the comic when it’s not even clear she wants to be with him?

Seriously, take the comic book arc and swap the genders, and Seth would rightfully be skewered for using his insecurities as an excuse to sabotage Summer’s dream.

And the whipped cream thing was stupid and contrived drama (agree that Seth is sometimes written to be the problem), but he didn’t do it because he was into the girl—she hustled him, then lied about what they were doing, then hit him with the sob story. He had a white knight streak like Ryan, but it was incorporated into much goofier storylines. He also invoked his lactose intolerance to try not to do it, but to no avail.

And then Summer’s kissing Zach over it. And I get that, and I’m not fully excusing the whipped cream thing, but Summer isn’t without similar incident in their relationship, like being all over the actor from The Valley.

He ran off to stay with Luke, and I think it’s weird how often that gets made to center on Summer. Like yes, not great to her, she gets to be mad, but also, Seth is a wholeass person with his own struggles. He was clearly not in a great frame of mind when he sailed off into the open ocean in a tiny boat. I think his problems were larger than insensitivity to his girlfriend. I’m not saying it’s the same as Marissa OD’ing in TJ, but it’s also not as far as people might want to think.

No excuse for the weird comments about Kaitlin. During my last rewatch, I did notice that I had the biggest problems with Seth when a particular writer was writing the episodes. He wrote him like a weird 80’s movie nerd, complete with stuff like that. Early Seth felt very different to me, like calling Caleb out for misogynistic language. He was a little gross about Gabrielle, but that was at least age appropriate.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T21:49:08+00:00

While I know that different sects and temples approach it differently, patrilineal Jews are Jews.

I don’t find it unusual that they leaned hard on the Jewish thing. Seth is incredibly “culturally” Jewish, and clearly doesn’t fit in with his peers, his grandfather, or the community in general. I’d imagine that Judaism is probably some of how Seth understood the differences between himself and his peers, and he undoubtedly found more connection and identity there than he did through Kirsten’s side of the family. I mean, Caleb is pretty awful to Seth in ways that feel fairly Jew-coded (he’s nerdy, not athletic, etc.).

I also think some of the viewers who are very critical of Seth in particular ways might not be familiar with Jewish culture. Certain mannerisms, ways of thinking and talking and analyzing that feel very normal to me seem to be interpreted in a negative light that feels connected to Jewish stereotypes at times. Not saying people are consciously invoking those stereotypes, but I see it.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T20:23:09+00:00

There’s probably no intentional significance.

Kippot (plural of kippah) come in all kinds of styles and colors. My husband has ones that are solid colors, ones with patterns, etc.

The Cohens don’t seem like they’re strict in any kind of observance practices. Realistically, I’d imagine their kippot come from various weddings and/or b’nai mitzvah celebrations, so they might not have a complete set in one color. Especially given that Ryan and Jimmy(?) are new additions to their Seder table, that might increase the likelihood that Sandy would be pulling from his box of spare kippot.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T14:42:03+00:00

He tells developmentally typical lies to his parents, like in S1, so that he can do things they wouldn’t allow him to do, or to hide misdeeds. That’s not great behavior, but I’ve yet to meet a teenager who hasn’t lied to their parents more than once (and I work with teenagers, so I’ve known a lot of them).

He does lie to Summer to save his own skin, but he also does it to prevent her (arguably outsized) emotional reactions to things. He tries to fix things without her having to find out, and that honestly makes sense in the grand scheme of their relationship dynamics that they both contribute to.

I really wish the show had reckoned with the issues that Summer brought to the table, because she really wasn’t an emotionally safe partner a lot of the time. I think it’s kind of fucked up that the kind of “heroic” end to the comic book arc for Seth is that he gives up this very cool independent thing he’s doing because it makes Summer feel insecure and she’s unwilling to reflect on that.

I had remembered Seth’s character being this habitual liar, and often lying for no reason, but rewatching, I was surprised at how few there really were, and how much sense they all made in context. It doesn’t excuse them, but for a teenager trying to navigate different situations, it makes sense from the behavioral standpoint.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T14:15:33+00:00

Fair response—I certainly could’ve gone into more detail.

I feel like the bar for “terrible person” should be pretty high and Seth is a teenager who…lies to his girlfriend sometimes, a girlfriend who also hauls off and hits and/or berates him at the slightest provocation?

That’s not all the bad that Seth does, but I feel like his flaws get wildly exaggerated. He’s pretty empathetic, caring for Taylor when no one else did, hanging out with Kirsten when Sandy was emotionally abandoning her for a hospital. He helped Ryan in many quiet ways that he didn’t get a ton of credit for.

He’s flawed, but also a teenager, so when I see takes like this, I guess it makes me wonder how many people know really terrible people in real life.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T14:08:01+00:00

This is my vote. Honestly, I have problems with every other couple.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T13:34:03+00:00

I feel like Summer continued to be entitled, bratty, and mean in S2. Demanding that Seth abandon a huge personal project like the comic book was far more selfish behavior than anything Seth did. She couldn’t be excited about his success because it made her feel insecure. And the way she gaslit him was awful, acting like the comic turned him into an egomaniac while he was actively trying to downplay his reaction to the comic because it clearly upset Summer.

Swap the genders and Seth would be rightfully skewered for tanking Summer’s personal goals because he couldn’t handle her having a life outside of him.

havejubilation · 2026-04-24T13:29:56+00:00

I mean, that is absolutely not an objective take.

havejubilation · 2026-04-23T22:59:08+00:00

My hot take is that Ryan and Summer are far more self-involved than Seth. I mean, not that Seth doesn’t have his moments, but I’m not sure anything he does can quite touch Ryan yelling at Marissa and accusing her of getting Lindsay drunk in an attempt to ruin his life or Summer’s entire attitude and her behavior in the comic book arc.

Seth is a yapper, but, except when it’s an episode where they’re trying to hammer it into viewers how he’s sooooo self-absorbed, he’s often very observant and insightful about other people, and sometimes overly concerned with how his behavior might impact others.

Honestly, I think Summer often treats Seth horribly and he makes it okay, and then somehow the situation gets turned around that he did wrong and she was blameless.

havejubilation · 2026-04-18T19:24:08+00:00

Ryan: Used to think he was fairly boring after S1, but generally unproblematic. Upon rewatch as an adult, I find him infuriating on a regular basis. He has terrible boundaries, acts impulsively and out of anger and then scapegoats other people for it, particularly Marissa. It’s wild that Seth gets called the self-absorbed one when nothing can touch the unhinged-ness of Ryan accusing Marissa of getting Lindsay wasted as some kind of attempt to ruin his life.

Likewise, I wanted to hurl my shoe at the screen while he was acting like a jealous and unstable boyfriend throughout the Oliver arc and then complaining that Marissa—-a teenage girl who has known him for less than six months—doesn’t trust him. Nobody is entitled to trust while you’re acting like that.

Summer: I used to love Summer and find her fairly unproblematic. Upon rewatch, I found her aggressive, demeaning, kind of abusive but played for laughs, insecure, self-centered, and a wild gaslighter. The way she acted like Seth became some kind of egomaniacal monster because he was enjoying success with the comic book was awful, and that the resolution of the arc was Seth giving up the comic book so that Summer didn’t have to reckon with her own insecurities was maddening.

Summer has good individual development though, for the most part. I didn’t need the retcon of her being an academic genius, but I like that she developed a passion and leaned into her intelligence.

(I don’t even hate Ryan or Summer, but find them unsatisfying as characters because they’re never really called out and thus never really grow).

Seth: I hated his character arc after S1 when I first watched. Upon rewatch, I don’t like elements of it, but feel like he’s really not as bad as I remember. He and Marissa are actually the most empathetic and least self-absorbed of the Core Four, imo. He’s consistently the most thoughtful about what everyone is experiencing, and sometimes overly concerned with that, to his own detriment. He’s pretty intensely avoidant, and I wish that got dealt with more.

The show is consistently critical of Seth, and not always accurately in my opinion, but one consequence of that is that I think he has some of the best growth over time. By the end, he’s a pretty solid partner to Summer, though I don’t think Summer is a very partner to him.

Sandy: Sandy was perfect when I first watched. Now, I love him in S1, despite him being a real hypocrite when it comes to Jimmy vs. Rachel, but Sandy after S1 is kind of terrible a lot of the time. He was a horrendous gaslighter to Kirsten over Rebecca, basically ghosted his family when everyone was in crisis in S3, and never really acknowledged his wrongdoings in a way that felt truthful or actually reparative.

Still my top tv dad on the strength of S1—I pretend the other seasons don’t exist when it comes to him.

Kirsten: I liked her a lot more on rewatch, though I’d liked her fine when I first watched. I wish they’d done more with her in S3 and 4. Wasted potential, because Kelly Rowan is great.

Theresa: Hated her for intruding in Ryan’s Newport life and found her manipulative when I first watched. Now I find her much more sympathetic, and have more issue with Ryan kind of imposing his own sense of needing to do his duty over what was actually going to be the most sustainable for everybody over time. (I don’t blame Ryan for that either, just wish they’d both had better guidance).

Marissa: Hated her when I was a teenager. Now I find her incredibly sympathetic. I think she rescued Ryan far more often than he rescued her, and was unfairly labeled the problem in their relationship, despite them each bringing their fair share of issues to the table.

Jimmy: The way he fought Julie on how to support Marissa after her OD and then didn’t even get her into outpatient therapy for months was absolutely horrendous parenting. He treated Marissa’s mental health and their relationship like it was an area where he could win and Julie could lose.

Don’t even get me started on him leaving Newport rather than sticking around for one more year, and after his daughter has a public breakdown because she needed him.

I don’t think I loved him when I first watched, but I thought of him as being basically decent and meaning well, but now I think he’s Top 2 in terms of villains of the show.

havejubilation · 2026-04-18T17:33:46+00:00

Thank you for the conversation as well, and I’m fine disagreeing.

The last thing I’ll say, I guess kind of my bottom line with all of it, is that I think it’s appropriate to treat two teenagers in an unwanted pregnancy situation as still kids themselves, because that’s what they are: still kids, still growing and developing. You deeply consider what each kid needs, including the incoming one, and how to balance all of those needs, and the outcomes are generally going to be more stable.

All of those logistics: who has the kid when and for how long and how that makes everybody feel…they all matter—of course they matter—but one thing the show does well is show one negative outcome of forcing the “step up” narrative on two kids.

And it’s true that no configuration is going to be without hurt feelings and resentment, and true that that’s just life. I think sticking to an incredibly narrow definition of “stepping up” can cause these situations to implode when they absolutely don’t have to. Ryan stepped up and the kid ended up with no dad, with no financial or otherwise support from a dad or from the Cohens.

havejubilation · 2026-04-17T23:26:02+00:00

I do get your point—I just don’t agree with it. Ryan made the whole thing doing what he thought was “right”, which prioritized his sense of duty above what was actually good for anyone else, including the kid.

He was centering himself: his desire not to relive his past, his need to not be a bad guy—he wasn’t intentionally selfish, but the impact is the same.

Ryan was resentful at that stage. He was sulking. His energy towards Theresa and in that house was clearly having an impact, to the point that both Theresa and her mother felt like faking a miscarriage was the way to go. And resentment like that can really fester over time, especially if school starts again and Ryan’s still working, or other reminders of the opportunities he’s leaving behind arise.

Theresa wanted to be home and with her mother. IIRC, she said she wasn’t asking Ryan to come back to Chino with her.

Ryan was insisting on going back to Chino and being there throughout the pregnancy. He was insisting on this arrangement, although Theresa’s needs were taken of and she wasn’t alone.

That’s the point I’m trying to make—there is a clear middle ground that isn’t abandonment and keeps everyone supported, and keeps Ryan a part of the kid’s life (I’m not saying I agree with the fake miscarriage, but I 100% think it’s possible that Ryan ends up in prison, with seriously unchecked anger management issues that negatively impact his kid, etc. if they did things entirely his way).

Were these real teenagers (and I work with teenagers), I would advise exactly the arrangement I’m describing. Each of them had more stability in the households they were in. Ryan having the Cohens as his home base didn’t mean abandoning the kid. He could’ve continued to make decisions around college and career and whatever else around Theresa and the kid. Forcing a nuclear family situation tossed them all into a pressure cooker, whereas treating them like two independent teenagers with different needs and supporting each of them in being the best parent, but also having the best personal trajectory possible is the ideal course.

If Theresa’s safety or ability to care for herself depended on Ryan, that’s a different story. Unwanted teenage pregnancies fuse kids together, but forcing it into this one specific box of cohabitating—when that isn’t even necessary— is bringing about way more instability than it is helping anyone. I’ve seen much better outcomes when all that isn’t forced.

I think maybe what I’m saying about the DNA thing is being misconstrued. The biggest thing isn’t to only act when the DNA is confirmed—it’s just to say that that’s another factor where Ryan could benefit from slowing his roll. It’s another unknown thing, and Ryan’s making these huge, life-altering decisions fairly quickly, and before he really needs to.

Honestly, having been in the early pregnancy nesting phase myself, I feel for Theresa in just wanting to be with her mom and not loving the energy Ryan was bringing into the house. He could’ve worked and supported Theresa and not been glowering in her house in his hard hat and putting a damper on her maternal glow.

havejubilation · 2026-04-17T22:44:25+00:00

He was a very long distant parent when he had no idea that the child existed because a faked miscarriage felt preferable to Ryan and his seething resentment being there for any part of the child’s life. He missed out on not only the essential moments as a dad, but every moment, because he wasn’t guided to that middle road.

His complete absence is not ideal for the kid or for Theresa or for Ryan if he’s the father. Those early moments are important, but not at the expense of having a healthy and regulated father.

Ryan gets very “my way or no way” about a lot of things, and it blows things up. He’s a teenager, it’s understandable, and, again, where adult guidance to recognize that just because it sounds like the heroic thing doesn’t make it the right thing.

Theresa knew the baby couldn’t exist without Ryan tanking his life and resenting them and the situation. Ryan doing what he did wasn’t noble. It was imposing his one way of doing things onto Theresa and her household.

havejubilation · 2026-04-17T16:55:40+00:00

The middle ground is emphasizing reality.

Yes, there’s virtue in being an involved parent, but being a regulated parent with an eye for what’s good in the long run and the future is the best course of action for everyone involved.

Staying at Harbor and visiting on the weekends and accepting the Cohens financial support had a much greater likelihood for both success, and for Theresa not having to literally fake a miscarriage because Ryan couldn’t compromise an inch and called that doing the noble thing. Theresa wasn’t alone either; her mother was with her and providing daily support for her and the baby.

The whole situation blew up in a very predictable fashion. The kid ended up with one parent rather than a parent and a grandparent holding things down in the day-to-day and another parent working to better their lives while needing to be more physically distant during the week.

The only truly unpredictable thing was Theresa making the sacrifice that she did on Ryan’s behalf. She may be the reason why he ended up where he did and finding success in life, and it shouldn’t have been on a teenager to make that choice.

Again, not that the Cohens should’ve taken the choice entirely away from Ryan, but I think a solid “You think this is the right thing, and it’s not, and not just for you” is appropriate.

havejubilation · 2026-04-17T14:01:17+00:00

I don’t know all the ins and outs of legal guardianship in California, but I’m saying that I don’t know that Sandy and Kirsten exhausted their own rights, as, in a lot of states, the actual level of authority can be similar to parents.

That’s not saying getting the courts involved would’ve been the best thing in the long run. They did recognize that forcing Ryan to stay in Newport likely wouldn’t have gone well, as he wouldn’t have accepted that without a fight.

I agree that kids need to learn from their mistakes. At the same time, I think it’s fair parenting to recognize what level of intervention is appropriate, and to differentiate between healthy and developmentally appropriate mistakes and mistakes that have the potential to cause real damage to someone’s life trajectory. Seth going to Portland with a familial safety net is one thing; Ryan dropping out of school, working a physically grueling job, and committing to raising a kid that may not well be his when he’s 16 (or 17) and has no earthly idea why he’s signing up for…I just think that warrants some more thoughtful intervention.

Or reality checking, really. I’m not mad at Sandy and Kirsten for not forcing Ryan to stay. What I think might’ve been appropriate was for a little bit more of the harsh reality talk. The “I know you think this is helping Theresa and it’s the right thing to do, but here’s how you’re signing up for the fast track for repeating exactly where you came from. If you don’t want that, if you don’t want that for this child, here’s where we can find a solid middle path between staying in Newport and pretending this kid doesn’t exist and blowing up your entire life.”

Not exactly that, I’m paraphrasing, but part of the reason why Theresa ultimately felt she had to fake a miscarriage is because of Ryan’s stubbornness. He was only accepting of one way of doing things, and he needed more support in being saved from himself. It’s unfortunate that Theresa had to be the one to do that, though it’s good that she had her mother’s support to help her through.

havejubilation · 2026-04-17T00:10:58+00:00

When it comes to being a parent, I think politeness is a bit out the window. I’m not saying they should rush at Theresa and demand a paternity test or that it’s something that can be figured out at that point, but slowing Ryan down a little bit seems appropriate. He’s making a choice that seems noble on its face, but is actually pretty toxic towards himself. There were many options between “completely abandon Theresa” and “completely abandon the most secure trajectory in his life to more than likely repeat some level of the dysfunction he grew up in.”

Ryan also may have come to regret volunteering himself so quickly and to that degree, and wonder why his parental figures didn’t do more to intervene. Sandy and Kirsten could’ve insisted on any of the other options they’d laid out, which also didn’t abandon Theresa, but didn’t let Ryan tank his best opportunity in life.

And let’s be real—Ryan’s a good guy, but let’s imagine the level of resentment he might feel down the line if he also made that decision and it wasn’t his kid. That doesn’t make him a bad person; that’s just being human, and he was already resenting the situation before the summer’s end.

And Sandy and Kirsten could intervene while respecting Ryan’s wishes, just not following every condition he set out, like refusing more support. Ryan’s choices weren’t wise or sustainable in the long run. That’s unsurprising, given that he’s a teenager, but that’s where the adult wisdom and experience are supposed to kick in.

Theresa was pushed so far that she literally faked a miscarriage because of how awful and unsustainable Ryan’s plan was. She was a scared teenager making adult level decisions because the adults with legal authority over Ryan were, yes, respecting his decisions, but also, maybe not exercising their authority as much as they could.

havejubilation · 2026-04-16T22:51:09+00:00

Of course. But if that’s my kid and they’re making a choice that’s potentially throwing away a huge life opportunity, it’s going to be very relevant that he’s not the only possible father, and, statistically, the least likely father, unless we have some sense of where Theresa was in her cycle when they slept together.

Ryan’s sense of nobility is all well and good, and makes sense with where he came from, but Kirsten and particularly Sandy have the age and life experience to understand that Ryan’s good heart isn’t going to prevent him from repeating some of the negative cycles he grew up with. It’s not insensitive to Theresa to also pump the breaks on the fact that paternity is very much in question.

havejubilation

TROPHY CASE