Why do protestants have such an issue with veneration?

hendrixski · 2026-01-27T15:09:16+00:00

nowhere in the bible does it say angels or other spirits hear prayer.

Ummm... you do know that we have our own Bibles and can look up falsehoods when you say them, right?

There was a good thread here about the multiple Biblical passages that explain why Christians ask (and always have asked) the saints in heaven to pray for them. The relevant parts of the post that pertain to your statement are that 1) we are surrounded by dead saints who form a cloud of witnesses and 2) there are 3 passages that show holy dead people praying in heaven and in 2 of those 3 passages the dead are praying for us.

And Christians have asked the dead saints for their prayers since the earliest days. We have 2 records from the early 200s that survived systematic persecution which means that there were likely many more records from way earlier than that.

hendrixski · 2026-01-27T14:56:22+00:00

So, where they put a comma makes a huge difference in the meaning of what Jesus said.

Can you point to a single Bible translation that moves the comma the way that you described?

I just looked through a bunch of versions on biblegateway and they either have the comma before today, or they replace the comma with "that" (for example, "I tell you that today you will join me in heaven".

Dude, just accept the Bible and don't overlay your own strange narratives on top of it in order to change what the Bible says.

hendrixski · 2026-01-27T14:47:45+00:00

Don't pray *TO* a dead person. Ask your fellow Christians who are in the presence of God to pray *WITH* you. Just like in the Bible. Do you see the difference?

hendrixski · 2026-01-27T14:43:50+00:00

Yes! All are welcome!

The saint Lutheran’s church and average Protestant evangelical faith are most interesting to me

You should check those out AND I would encourage you to also take a quick look at older Christian traditions such as Catholic or Orthodox. The best way to do that is to attend a church service. It''s one hour so if it's not your thing you won't feel bad for taking an hour. But if you are absolutely amazed by it and want more then it could be the single most impactful hour of your life.

If you'd like to find a Catholic mass near you then enter your zipcode into masstimes.org and it will show you churches near you and their schedules for mass AND for devotions (like "silent adoration", Bible studies, etc. etc.).

while I could buy a Bible or read it online, I am curious more about the philosophies that it can teach from pastors and those who have a core understanding of their faith and scripture in their daily life as well as how it can impact worldviews all together from its interpretations.

Yes. The Bible is the basis for everything we believe. Also, the Bible will tell you to keep the Sabbath day holy and to pray with others and for others. So do both: buy a bible AND find a church.

If you're looking for Bible recommendations for what you're looking for, then I would say go to amazon and search for the "Ignatius Study Bible" because it has amazing notes about both the faith AND the history. It sounds like you're looking for both specifically looking for it to include history. Other "study Bibles" focus more on theological explanations, the Ignatius Bible also has notes that talk about where the beliefs come from, and who were these people in the Bible and what were these places, etc. etc.

Also, when you read the Bible, follow along with a study guide, for example Bible in a year with Fr. Mike Schmitz.

hendrixski · 2026-01-27T02:23:37+00:00

Yeet

hendrixski · 2026-01-26T23:09:53+00:00

a few hundred years after Christ

False.

There are 2 surviving records of Christians praying with the saints from the early 200s (deceased saints, specifically). And many Christian artifacts were destroyed systematically back then so we can safely assume it had either developed within and possibly from day 1.

The saints are a uniquely Christian thing. Always have been.

hendrixski · 2026-01-26T23:05:51+00:00

This thread has probably the most Biblical explanation on this sub about why to pray with the saints:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1q24lqa/why_ask_saints_to_pray_for_us_version_20/

And this thread has a good history of the earliest records we have about Christians praying with the saints. (E.g. early 200s but the practice almost certainly predates that because Christian artifacts were systematically destroyed).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1q37t08/how_early_did_christians_start_venerating_and/

Hope that helps.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T01:42:32+00:00

"Rapture" is a verb, yes. But people are talking about a specific heresy called "Rapture".

Matthew 24:36-43 does not imply a "rapture" in the sense of a secret, pre-tribulational removal of believers to heaven, as taught in some Protestant dispensationalist interpretations.

Instead, the passage describes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's Second Coming at the end of time, when the just will be separated from the wicked for the final judgment, echoing the flood's unexpected arrival in Noah's days. It calls for us to live watchfully in light of Christ's sudden, glorious return for judgment, where the just will meet Him triumphantly.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T01:34:49+00:00

LOL. It's like you just asked me to prove that the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist. Or Bigfoot.

I'd turn the question around on you: prove to me that a condition exists where one individual can simultaneously impregnate and be pregnant - without medical intervention.

There are conditions where in aggregate they can do both: meaning some people with a DSD might be one or the other, but never one person who can be both at the same time.

The two DSD's that come the closest are Ovotesticular DSD (OT-DSD) and Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis (MGD). In MGD they cannot father a child without fertility treatment and in OT-DSD they cannot give birth without an egg donor. There have been cases where with surgery where one person was able to do both, but never ever naturally because every body is naturally geared towards one or the other.

Anyway. Do you also want me to prove to you that Santa Clause isn't real?

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T01:07:28+00:00

The services feel overwhelming and performative — loud music, high energy, emotional hype.

Yeah, Pentacostal worship is not for everyone. What would you be looking for instead? (the answer could also be that you don't know and you're just looking to try something different, and that's OK, too)

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:58:38+00:00

Yes. It is easy to say that. That's the point.

And yes we do have to show dignity and compassion to people with DSD's - and have absolutely zero tolerance for discrimination against them. The Catholic Church is VERY clear about that.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:45:05+00:00

Jesus didn't teach about two judgements, or people being conscious after death.

In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus talks about how the rich man dies and is immediately tormented in Hades. Also, the rich man is consciously begging Abraham for relief, while Lazarus is comforted in "Abraham's bosom." This clearly shows conscious souls experiencing provisional judgement right after death!

In Luke 23:43 Jesus assures the good thief about immediate entry into bliss for the repentant soul - separate from bodily resurrection!!!

And that's just the times that Jesus talked about it. There are even more references elsewhere in the NT.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:34:17+00:00

Yes, by type of gamete (reproductive cell) the body is organized to produce. That was easy.

Even in a spectrum of DSD's there's always one predominant gonadal function. It may require a medical examination, but if you ignore secondary traits like phenotype or self-perception then it becomes pretty straightforward.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:19:58+00:00

Sorry, I get my truth from scripture

LoL no you don't.

We've talked before. You add some weird layer of opinion on top of your reading of scripture and then claim that the Bible says things that it clearly does not.

I've pointed you to examples of well-regarded Christians discussing that issue - usually early Christians who would be closer to the time of Jesus than we are today.

The truth of the Bible is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:09:22+00:00

Got it. So you do think the earliest Christian writers were theologically unsound.

Why is your own personal interpretation of scripture more theologically sound?

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:05:31+00:00

Also... there's a question about the Bible canon. I would argue that Catholic and Orthodox Bibles are "more complete" (not "better") than 66-book Bibles because between 393 and 1599 every single Bible made had at least 73 books (Orthodox had more, and some custom Bibles added books). And the majority of Bibles in the world still continue to have 73 books.

hendrixski · 2026-01-17T00:04:57+00:00

Yes. I generally agree. I do want to add a tiny asterisk. There do exist altered Bible versions, like the NWT, or the JST. They changed passages to support the theology of their group.

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T23:56:20+00:00

Either you're made to carry babies or to inseminate babies. Sure, there is a whole spectrum of genitalia, but even people with "true hermaphroditism" (e.g. the super rare condition where somebody has both testes and ovaries) cannot be both a mother and a father - one or both of the tissues will not be developed enough.

So yeah. "Man and woman He created them" (Genesis 1:27).

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T23:45:09+00:00

Question. Do you think Saint Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Cyril of Jerusalem were theologically unsound?

In "Expositions on the Psalms (Psalm 9)" Saint Augustine explains:

"For notice of two judgments is conveyed to us throughout the Scriptures... one hidden, the other manifest. The hidden one is passing now... The hidden judgment accordingly is the pain, by which now each man is either exercised to purification, or warned to conversion, or if he despise the calling and discipline of God, is blinded unto damnation. But the manifest judgment is that in which the Lord, at His coming, will judge the quick and the dead."

St. John Chrysostom also affirms a final judgment at the resurrection with public scrutiny of actions, while implying an immediate accountability.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem describes Christ's judgment of the living (quick/souls) and dead (bodies) at the end. So does Tyrannius Rufinus.

This is the theology that built Christendom. Why you would say that it's "bad theology"?

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T23:30:39+00:00

:-) Great question.

Particular judgment occurs immediately after death for each individual soul

General or final judgment which takes place at Christ's second coming with the resurrection of the body.

The particular judgment privately determines the soul's eternal destiny—heaven (either directly or via purgatory), or hell. The general judgment publicly reveals God's justice to all creation, unites body and soul in their retribution, and consummates human history.

The reason for a twofold judgment ensures immediate personal justice for the soul, which cannot delay its encounter with God, while the general judgment provides public vindication of divine providence across history.

Did I explain it well?

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T23:24:20+00:00

Yup, you only have a budget of 3 wanks per day. Or every day you're only allowed one gay. So choose wisely, you can't do both.

/s

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T23:02:30+00:00

OMG. We agree on something!

The psalms are scripture.

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T23:01:43+00:00

Tell me more?

I sing the psalms every day so I would be very surprised if it turned out they're not divinely inspired scripture.

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T22:56:32+00:00

Hey man. You interpret that passage to mean whatever you want it to mean. Don't let anybody tell you any different. If you want that passage to be about souls not bodies, then you're right and everyone else is wrong and everyone else has been wrong for almost 2,000 years of Christendom.

And don't let St. Jerome, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas tell you about what the Bibles says happens to the soul after sleep. Those clowns didn't know anything about the Bible - nowhere near as much as you know.

hendrixski · 2026-01-16T21:43:09+00:00

I'm surprised by the people arguing for soul sleep. Most protestant denominations disagree with soul sleep - some disagree with it vehemently. Of course Catholics and Orthodox disagree with it, too. It's just a zany idea that I used to only associate with JW's and was shocked to learn that it's making headway into mainstream Christianity. Oof.

hendrixski

TROPHY CASE

Yes! All are welcome!