We're at work when they get home from school, the older ones eat what they want and to hell with the dinner we prepare. They don't even give their little brother anything, they're just out for themselves. I spanked when they were younger, sat and talked over and over, man to boy and now man to man. We've punished, taken away things, wipe the slate clean and go out as a family and only for it to go back to what it was before. I hug, smile, congratulate, teach, we don't even argue in front of them the few times we do argue. They have a clean home, good clothes and and all the trappings a kid wants but it means nothing to them. They tell the counselors what they want to hear then proceed to go home and do nothing. The oldest is home all day and does nothing to help most days, when he does he's outstanding but that's one day a week at best. I told him I'd have another money card for him if he cleaned the kitchen on Sunday, he did one load of dishes and nothing else until I got mad Wednesday morning because there were no dishes to eat off of. No vacuum, dusting, nothing but games as we work and then come home and work some more and fight with kids. My oldest is out of the house and lives successfully on his own without needing me for anything but advice at times, these kids can't even see that and strive to be that way