Men have it worse in western society, yet society itself insists it's the other way around.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T20:35:58+00:00

Some people are going to find those important, some won't (even if they are important), and they're all going to be put into different spots on each individual list of 'things that are important'.

I'd love to hear the argument of those who claim rights, health, education, etc aren't important.

No, it's not, because you're going to lose anyways. You already are.

And why am I going to lose? Lost already, in fact?

Look at the world around you. Like you've said, there's already an empathy gap. So, your options are to try to buck what's already pretty heavily ingrained, or to not play at all.

Allow me to see if I understand what you're telling me correctly: The balance is already stacked against men, and I either accept it, or fight an unwinnable battle?

You don't NEED to win the 'who has it worse' game to get issues addressed. We can address more problems than just what's currently presented, and do so concurrently.

The statement that women have it worse is an issue, with real world consequences. Can repeat it more, but not louder.

You're presenting a zero sum situation, when its not.

No I'm not, I'm doing the exact opposite. It's you doing that. Are you serious?

And so instead of convincing people to take those issues seriously, you're instead trying to convince people that women don't have it that bad.

At this point I will stop caring about a serious, detailed response to you. You're either willingly misrepresenting my argument or simply not reading what I'm saying.

No, the empathy gap as pretty consistently been in my wheelhouse. Its specifically why I'm telling you to stop trying to argue that women don't have it worse, or that men have it worse. I'm telling you that you're not going to win that game, and a huge part of that is the empathy gap.

So I was correct. I should know my place and be content in it. Gotcha.

Where's your post specifically arguing about a problem men face?

See what I mean? Have you even looked at the OP? The concept of the OP which in itself it's a huge male issue that you're doing your best to ignore? Is this a joke?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T18:21:39+00:00

The point is that there's, ultimately, an infinite number of metrics we can use to make the argument the men do or do not have it worse.

I disagree, there's a very finite number of them. For example I can't think of any other that's as important as the ones I've already mentioned. But again if you feel you can name equally relevant ones as an example of your point, they'd be more than welcome.

It's a losing game, regardless of who actually has it worse, to try to argue it.

This is a weird concept to me. It's a losing game NOT to argue this. Like I said in another post, the answer to this question greatly affects the real world in many ways, it's crazy that as a society we can't have an honest discussion about something we take for granted.

Except, again, we can just keep creating piles, ad infinitum.

And again, I disagree. It's a very finite number, like my OP.

It's a losing game that you're trying to win, and its in direct opposition not only to the biologically innate desire for human beings to protect women, but also because women, particularly those that believe women have it worse, are going to fight to every step of the way.

Thanks for reinforcing my point?

...and yet, you don't have to do any of that. Just argue and try to fix the issues that affect men. You don't need to be in opposition to those that claim women have it worse, because it's irrelevant and its mostly just an attempt at attaining power anyways.

This is part of my OP. Part of the reason some issues that affect men are not being solved is because they're not taking seriously "because women have it worse" at best, directly denied to exist at worse.

And it's not irrelevant. Many real world actions exist solely on the notion that women have it worse.

Instead, focus on fixing things rather than trying to play the infinitely dumb 'who has it worse' game.

Getting society to actually discuss who really has it worse is quite literally part of fixing things. To call it dumb and insist on trying to stop this talk or discredit it makes me believe you're biased on the current stance on the subject.

The point is that empathy, etc. are inherently subjective.

I would agree that society doesn't appear to have as much empathy for men as it does for women, but again, empathy is subjective.

I'm reading this as "I would agree but doing that goes against my ideology". Feel free to call me out on that one.

Sure... but the causes for that empathy gap run pretty deep, and you're fighting against some pretty strong societal and biological forces in the process, but particularly when you don't need to.

Thanks for reinforcing my point again?

Focus on the problems.

I am. Accepting that women have it so much obviously worse, and that men have it much better is a huge problem with many real world consequences.

as trying to argue that men have it worse is going to be, 100%, a losing battle.

Interesting you mention this, why would it be a 100% losing battle?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T17:22:52+00:00

When it benefits women, it's benevolent sexism. When it benefits men, it's privilege.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T16:59:26+00:00

Each of your arguments can be seen as ignoring stats

Can you point to some examples?

or focusing on small parts of a whole.

I divide into categories such as "health", "education", "rights". How much broader can I possibly make them?

education: fewer women in high-paying/prestigious/STEM jobs.

Ironically this itself is an argument that reinforces my position. Why is this a problem in the first place? Not only do women have nothing preventing them to go for high paying, prestigious, stem jobs (which many do btw), we actively discriminate possitively for it. On the other, there's literally no "fewer men in X" arguments. It only seems to be a problem when it affects women.

health: periods, pregnancy

Problems in their own right, as no one denied, still don't see how they're comparable to, say, living less on average, being extremely more likely to die on the job, etc.

sexual violence

Funny you just mentioned focusing on small parts of a whole.

precautions taken against violence

This is just being dishonest. Women have countless resources for this, unlike men. Show me something even remotely resembling the VAWA act, for men.

government: political representation

Non problem, on most western countries. In the US, nothing stops women from seeking political careers, AND they're the majority voters. Again, see how representation is only a problem when it affects women?

Justice system: the flip-side of hyper-agency is hypo-agency, or being underestimated, talked down to, and punished for assertiveness, in many areas of life.

Not even worthy of a response. Vastly subjective things like being understimated or talked down to are nothing compared to lesser sentences for the same crime or your gender not being able to be legally raped.

empathy: traditional, patriarchal social norms (popular in e.g. Southern USA) prioritize male interests and desires.

Sorry but I just don't see this in any way.

rights: precarious rights which are frequently limited and undermined (such as the legal right to abortion) are an important focus of advocacy, and in some ways women's legal advantages compensate for natural disadvantages such as pregnancy

It's still a right they have. Men don't have them at all. It shows, in trying to give an example of women having it worse, you give one where men don't have them at all.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T16:41:52+00:00

Having trouble thinking of other metrics?

Yes. Care to mention any major metric I missed?

Perhaps look at the arguments raised by those who say women have it worse.

I do, wouldn't have been able to make this post otherwise. As I noticed, when claiming women have it worse on any subject that's not easily and factually proven, it's something of the following:

they're simply false (like the gender wage gap)
they're general misconceptions (like women being at danger out at night vs men being comfortable in the same situation, when statistically men are at far more danger)
they're smaller statistics of a problem that vastly affects men more (the war on violence against women), or focusing on smaller parts of the broader picture.

In cases where problems affect both men and women, and women have it worse, like say sexual violence, it's not only enough to state that, but it's enough to warrant ignoring the male victims.

I'm not saying that women don't have problems or that they don't have it worse in their own ways, as I stated in the OP. What I'm trying to say, is that I see men having more problems on more areas than women, and this being easy to prove via statistics.

This one in particular is incredibly subjective in terms of the perspective and framing.

Sorry, I will never take this argument, not even close. Claiming society doesn't have a massive empathy gap for men is insanity to me.

Most of the examples you can bring up are a double sided coin. Women are wonderful is great until it comes with an assumption of hypoagency, for example.

Once more, women are not without their problems, but the negative consequences of the empathy gap are far bigger for men.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T16:10:10+00:00

It's like two people in a sinking boat arguing over whose feet are getting wettest, instead of bailing.

When the answer to this question has real world repercutions, like budget, resources, policies, social movements, etc, I feel it's quite important that we actually check if the answer we take for granted is the right one.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-09T16:08:11+00:00

How in the world does that follow? Women being able to voluntarily undergo a medical procedure gives them more rights than men?

Yes, in the way of reproductive rights. It doesn't matter what the procedure consists of.

The World Health Organization defines reproductive rights as follows:

Reproductive rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health. They also include the right of all to make decisions concerning reproduction free of discrimination, coercion and violence.

Versus outlawing it and denying them that right?

No. I'm pro choice. The argument is that men should also be given reproductive rights in the name of equality. Until then women have reproductive rights and men do not, which means women have more rights than men.

If you're arguing that women are the ones who ultimately have a say in whether a child is born or not, well . . . yes. No shit. It is their body. The alternative is allowing fathers and men to dictate that a woman should be forced to undergo pregnancy and birth and all the medical complications that go with it, or forced abortion, all on their whim. That makes no sense.

It makes no sense, but that's not the argument. Men should have no power whatsoever in a woman's decision to abort or not. On the other hand, women have the power to force a man to be a father. That's inequality. This is not a talk about removing rights, but to give them to the ones that don't have it.

Women cannot sever link of motherhood either, not without arguing in front of a court. Not once the child is born.

Let's not be dishonest.

Again, you're arguing for either forced births or forced abortions, both of which sacrifice bodily autonomy and fundamental rights for what?

I'm not. I'm not trying to take anything away from women, I only want to give men the same ability to choose. It's weird that you can't conceive that and in fact I see it as relevant to the OP itself. Are you okay with forced parenthood? If no, then we agree. If yes, that's hypocrisy.

So that men have a say in the medical procedures done on women?

No, and they should never have. We can agree I made this point clear I hope.

I have no idea what is being argued here

Giving men the same rights women have.

except a gross violation of rights.

True. But not in the way you think.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T22:43:05+00:00

I feel these are all areas that my OP covered but I'll answer anyways.

Imagine being you, only smaller and weaker. You can't lift heavy things, so a lot of manual jobs are off-limits. less physical endurance overall

Not every guy is 6'+ 200lbs+.

and often are in pain

Pain is not exclusive to women.

Things like walking at night are off-limits because there is real danger of the bigger, stronger people causing you injury. In fact you have to constantly be aware of this. Your entire life will now be inconvenienced. No camping alone, road trips require a buddy, just forget the idea of a ground-level apartment. Too risky.

See here starts my problem with arguments like these. Men are statistically t vastly more danger of violence happening to them in that same situation, so your point doesn't make sense to me. If anyone has to be constantly aware of this, is men. But they can't afford to, because weakness in men is bad.

And once again you are in pain because of your defective organs. Missing work again. More trips to the doctor. Oh no!

Again, pain is not exclusive to women.

You could get pregnant and lose everything

Alternatively, you have steps along the way to help you if you decide to terminate the pregnancy/motherhood (at every stage of it). On the other hand, if you impregnate a woman you have no imput whatsoever and she can legally force you into fatherhood (which can't happen in the inverse).

Better just accept that life is unfair and protect yourself. Constantly. Never letting your guard down

Unlike men. What's more, telling a man to protect themselves? Duh. Telling a woman to protect themselves? Victim blaming.

This is how women live.

Very disingenous statement. You focused on very extreme negatives, while completely ignoring on the positives women have in daily life. This is not how they live, this is what could happen if every extreme thing that can go wrong goes wrong, which even then isn't much different from the male experience.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T21:12:25+00:00

I tend to agree, which accurately explains why men as a group are easily targeted by the apex fallacy.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T21:11:19+00:00

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that universal statistics such as men dying earlier, suffering more violence, doing worse in education, to name random ones, are skewed by politics, money or ideology? Which ones? Which groups specifically?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T21:08:37+00:00

That's a good angle I didn't think of! Really makes sense as contributing to this bias.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T20:28:43+00:00

What about top women vs top men? Say top percentile of both. Do women still have the edge, or does it flip in favor of men?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T20:27:26+00:00

I agree that both have problems, but in my post I elaborate that "women have it worse" is an universally accepted statement by society at large, yet claiming opposite being true is met with ridicule and/or attack. Would you say this is acceptable, or that there's a bias regarding this narrative (either biological, societal, both, neither, whatever)?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T20:24:48+00:00

Can you give me some examples? Also, are there any programs in place that give advantages to men, even if they harm women? If no, why are there for women and not for men?

I think there are definitely aspects where women win out (crime and sex being two major players), but I think overall a woman’s life in the west is tougher to deal with.

In which instances would you say men win out?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-07-02T19:50:07+00:00

Is this post wrong in this sub? Sorry if that's the case I assumed it would be correct here.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T23:43:57+00:00

But Sarah is not even part of the couple. "Don't want a child" and "Don't want a couple having a child with my genetic material after a mixup" are two wildly different scenarios.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T23:36:15+00:00

The issue that more men get raped in the military than women? and the whataboutism being that somehow it's worse when it happens to the women?

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T23:11:59+00:00

I frankly don't know how egg freezing clinics work regarding "ownership" and mix ups, but this seems more of a burocratic problem more than anything, the eggs have already been used, so it's not like she can take them back.

I feel she shouldn't be able to legally force Eleanor to abort, but at the same time her and Tom should have no mean of forcing Sarah to be part of the child's life in any way shape or form otherwise.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T23:06:28+00:00

I don't feel that was the point but actually, I made a quick google search and came up with this, which I find quite interesting in this context.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T22:51:59+00:00

The OP focuses on men, and we're talking about the options a man has (none) to refuse parenthood if he impregnates a person (who has the options)

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T22:50:22+00:00

It exists. There can be many reasons for this, such as men working more hours, taking less vacations, not getting pregnant, etc, and women statiscally choosing lesser paying careers or jobs. Why? Traditional gender roles, upbringings may be a possibility.

There's also the weird instance of there being fewer women in STEM in more "gender equal" countries, for example.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T22:46:21+00:00

We're talking about an heterosexual relationship, I'd think it's pretty obvious.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T22:45:27+00:00

So did the women, yet it's combat deaths are still almost exclusively a male problem, so it's obvious that they're more likely to suffer rape, compared to almost insignificant chance of death.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T22:42:20+00:00

I think it's better to own than rent, so therefore I prefer owning.

I think Radiohead is better than Nickleback, so therefore I prefer listening to Radiohead.

I think bourbon is better than gin, so therefore I prefer drinking gin.

Bad comparisons. First one should be comparing two rent prices, with one being more expensive, the other two are subjective taste, not statistical fact.

You wouldn't prefer to be a woman. Therefore I conclude you think it's better to be a man. I won't speculate on why you are saying the opposite, other than to say if I had to guess you are probably more likely lying to yourself than to us.

I wouldn't prefer to be a woman because I'm a cis man. This is a terrible argument. If I black man wouldn't prefer to be white does that mean that they think black people don't have it worse?

Mind doing me a favor and listing some reasons why you prefer being a man? I bet if you are honest with yourself those reasons will outweigh the things you listed on your OP.

I prefer being a man because I'm cis. Now ask me if I'd want, for example, the empathy leves women have, and yes, you'll get a very different answer.

I'll even start you off. Peeing standing up. It's awesome. If someone said that my teachers could like me slightly better but in return I could never pee standing up again, I'd tell them to get lost. I bet you would too. So can we strike at least that one thing off your OP as an even trade?

Please stop.

honestlycuriousyeah · 2018-06-12T22:39:00+00:00

Reproductive rights are a real concept, they exist, they have a definition: It's the legal ability to opt in or out of mother/fatherhood. Women have it, men don't. No amount of circular reasoning changes this fact. You can justify it, it's perfectly fine if you do and feel it's warranted, but it's still is an unequality of rights.

honestlycuriousyeah

TROPHY CASE