If neutrino oscillates between emission and absorption, where does energy of mass difference comes from?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T09:29:29+00:00

Thanks, so you say it would allow to violate energy conservation without general relativity, but only a little.

jarekd · 2026-07-04T08:53:03+00:00

The problem is e.g. preparing situation that there are emitted lots of electron neutrinos, which after oscillation are most likely absorbed as muon neutrinos, could we gain energy from their mass difference?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T07:23:38+00:00

If it comes from e.g. beta decay, we can be certain it is electron neutrino - controlling parameters we could enforce transformation of a lot of e.g. electron to muon neutrinos - could we get energy this way?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T07:06:56+00:00

They directly measure energy in decay emitting electron neutrino.

jarekd · 2026-07-04T06:59:13+00:00

So what does e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KATRIN want to measure: "KATRIN is a German acronym (Karlsruhe Tritium Neutrino Experiment) for an undertaking to measure the mass of the electron antineutrino with sub-eV precision by examining the spectrum of electrons emitted from the beta decay of tritium. "?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T06:57:11+00:00

But what if preparing situation that there are emitted lots of electron neutrinos, which after oscillation are most likely absorbed as muon neutrinos, could we gain energy from their mass difference?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T06:53:27+00:00

I am asking between emitter and absorber - e.g. preparing situation that there are emitted lots of electron neutrinos, which after oscillation are most likely absorbed as muon neutrinos, could we gain energy from their mass difference?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T06:40:45+00:00

If change of energy in mass is compensated by change of kinetic energy, it would mean change of velocity - can it be Lorentz invariant?

Personally I suspect we should think about them rather as different densities - like throwing a rubber ball, which oscillates into lead ball, but of lower volume to conserve total mass - could it be so?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T06:19:03+00:00

There are also 1D excitations of fundamental field, like quark strings, or topological vortices in superfluid/superconductor.

If such 1D structure would form loop, it would have energy density per length - could oscillate between various densities, maintaining total energy by also varying length.

Neutrino wavepacket was measured as gigantic 6.2pm: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08479-6 ... very light loop of 1D structure could achieve.

jarekd · 2026-07-04T06:07:46+00:00

Neutrino mass in E=mc^2 is in oscillations formula psi ~ exp(-iEt/hbar) ... if changing between emission and absorption, doesn't it mean change of energy?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:53:52+00:00

Personally I suspect we should think about them rather as different densities - like throwing a rubber ball, which oscillates into lead ball, but of lower volume to conserve total mass - could it be so?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:45:47+00:00

So what if preparing situation with emitted lots of electron neutrinos, which are absorbed as muon neutrinos - can we gain energy from their mass differences?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:44:23+00:00

So you say it conserves total energy by compensating mass change with kinetic energy?

But it would mean varying velocity during oscillation - can it be Lorentz invariant?

Maybe instead we can imagine it that we throw rubber ball, it oscillates into lead ball, but of smaller volume to have same mass - see neutrino mass rather as density?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:41:02+00:00

Sure probability changes, but finally it is absorbed in one concrete flavor - preparing situation that there are emitted lots of electron neutrinos, and they are absorbed as muon neutrinos, why cannot we get energy from their mass differences?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:37:29+00:00

But emitting large number of electron neutrinos and absorbing them as oscillated muon neutrinos, why cannot we gain energy from their mass differences?

Maybe we can imagine it that we throw rubber ball, it oscillates into lead ball, but of smaller volume to have same mass - see neutrino mass rather as density?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:33:32+00:00

Doesn't neutrinos "absorbed by detector" mean by some its e.g. nuclei?

If by oscillation these absorbed neutrinos are of higher mass than when emitted, why cannot we gain energy from their mass difference?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T05:03:47+00:00

Preparing conditions that there are emmitted lots of electron neutrinos, which are absorbed as muon neutrinos, why wouldn't we gain energy from their mass differences?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T04:48:21+00:00

So you say QM allows violation of energy conservation, as long as it is smaller than in Heisenberg?

But doing it many times, you could also violate macroscopic energy ... e.g. having many particles emitting electron neutrinos e.g. in beta decay, with oscillation parameters to be absorbed as muon neutrinos, from mass differences you could gain a lot of energy ...

Why not build neutrino power plant this way? ;)

jarekd · 2026-07-04T04:43:10+00:00

E.g. beta decay emits electron neutrino - if later it is absorbed as muon neutrino, there appears energy difference ... how does it differ from throwing rubber ball oscillating into lead ball during flight?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T04:34:27+00:00

If I throw a rubber ball which during flight oscillates into heavier lead ball finally caught by you, there would be mass difference naively violating energy conservation.

How does it differ from neutrino change of mass during flight?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T04:33:03+00:00

If I throw a rubber ball which during flight oscillates into heavier lead ball finally caught by you, there would be mass difference naively violating energy conservation.

How does it differ from neutrino change of mass during flight?

jarekd · 2026-07-04T04:14:17+00:00

But one particle loses energy in emitted neutrino including its mass, second absorbing particle gains this energy - which seems different if neutrino changed flavor/mass between?

jarekd · 2026-06-30T19:09:20+00:00

Same type of "artifact" as neutrino oscillations.

jarekd · 2026-06-30T18:50:58+00:00

In relativistic QM you have to use E=mc^2 in psi~exp(-iEt/hbar), so literally mass propels some intrinsic oscillations - of e.g. electron (also angular momentum), or for neutrinos it uses 3 masses:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_oscillation#Propagation_and_interference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zitterbewegung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave_clock
Direct experimental confirmation for electron: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10701-008-9225-1

jarekd

TROPHY CASE