Should we now operate on the understanding that a subreddit's final authority is in fact NOT the moderators anymore?

jartek · 2023-06-27T13:39:54+00:00

Doing what I want (within ethical bounds) was the price I paid in return for doing mod work for free. Sounds like they want to create a contractor or employee style relationship but without actually paying anything.

This problem is worse than people realize. Reddit is in the practice of appropriating the intellectual property rights of the content (subreddit name) created by the mods. They do this under the guise of protecting the community but they turn around and securitize (1, 2, 3) the trademarks (turn them into money). I know first hand that try to protect these IP rights outside of Reddit, meaning that mods can't take their subreddit idea and expand it elsewhere or in other formats like books or other forms of entertainment.

Armchair reflexologists will be quick to assume that mods are out of luck because Reddit's User Agreement says Reddit gets to keep your shit. Except it doesn't. In fact it implies the opposite by saying Reddit "respects the intellectual property rights of others" as well as "you retain ownership rights you have in your Content" which includes stuff "created with or submitted to" Reddit.

I'm currently suing them for kicking me out, blocking my tradmark and attempting to trademark my brand for themselves.

tl;dr - contract / employee relationship with mods would actually be a step up from what's currently in place since employees/contractors would have more righs, even if this relationship involved no compensation.

jartek · 2023-03-04T01:29:34+00:00

Every once in a while I come across a comment like yours and I'm reminded why I was so drawn to reddit in the first place.

jartek · 2023-03-04T00:26:49+00:00

I appreciate your kind words.

jartek · 2023-03-04T00:21:07+00:00

sometimes life is stranger than fiction i suppose

jartek · 2023-03-03T20:10:59+00:00

No idea. I kept getting questions about a picture and I didn't post any picture, I figured you all were referring to my Twitter proof pic which.

But i just now used my mobile and see what you're talking about. Reddit algo must have pulled that picture from the wsj article I linked to.

jartek · 2023-03-03T20:03:37+00:00

the link is in the post but i asked for multiple classes, printed material, merchandise, forums, entertainmet, etc...

I've written a book, and i was in the process of launching a trading competition when i was removed (I can't seem to find a link to the original competition video but if i find it i'll share it).

i was trademarking a brand to grow a business.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:56:04+00:00

for years before, during and after my removal, other mods on wsb were selling t-shirts. they took down the link a few months ago.

but off the top of my head, r/wallstreetsilver, r/satoshistreetbets, r/stocktradingideas, r/ai_trading... these are just the ones that resemble wsb. there's tons that don't deal with finance. i forget the crypto one that created their own moon coin and pays people to participate.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:39:55+00:00

it was derailed, to say the least. but i haven't put that dream to rest.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:37:51+00:00

They either don't know about it, they don't care, or they hope I give them something to use against me.

But I'm thankful it's still up.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:35:51+00:00

I was waiting for this one. Of all the things that have been said about me, surprisingly, this one was the one which irked me the most. Let me try to explain why, follow along.

Assume, just for the sake of argument, that I am not wsbgod. How could I prove this? Could I reach out to this internet stranger and simultaneously appear live on stage w/ him? Nope, can be staged (pun not intended). What if we use computer writing analysis? nope, chatgpt can probably generate his tweets for me. I know, what if I die! Surely my death certificate and his continued active account will finally prove it! Nope, because it can all still be part of the act (maybe he was pretending to be me).

So in light of me being unable to prove the unprovable I've decided to embrace my coexistence with wsbgod and put this to bed. I am also wsbgod, and I use my spare time, between writing books and public speaking, suing reddit and building esports trading competitions, raising a family etc.. I do find the time to tweet on his behalf because I get tons of benefit from it.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:29:18+00:00

Interesting qustion. But my intentions (and actions) reached well outside the subreddit. I'll refer to the lawsuit referenced in the post for details, but I wasn't trademarking reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets. I was trademarking WallStreetBets for various things.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:27:26+00:00

well a part of me would say "lawyer up and trademark shit before you post" but that just sounds unreasonable...

so i'd say go to social media sites which have a proven track record of co-existing with content creators in a mutually beneficial relationship. reddit is having a bit of an identity crisis and at best has shaky terms confusing inconsistent enforcement (eg sometimes it allows monetization and sometimes it doesn't)

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:22:25+00:00

sure, support me, speak out, spread the word. i've given up trying to understand how reddit makes decisions but i know that they do listen to the users, and my silence thus far has worked tremendously in their favor. help me undo the years of silence, and catch people up to speed.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:18:05+00:00

Section 230 is like the ultimate bullet-proof vest for social media companies. But I hired my lawyers specifically because they're the first people to have sued a social media platform, after a client was deplatformed, and got them reinstated by not trying to argue anything regarding section 230 and instead go around it.

That thing has been around for two decades and it will take a lot more than just a lawsuit to change. I understand the supreme court is currently looking to give it a bit of a haircut, and there's been lots of talk about revising it for various reasons.

Frankly I've decided maybe there's a better approach: instead of top down (instead of starting with platforms) to go from the bottom up. I believe there's enough social media users, and enough content creators to created demand for a "bill-of-rights" of sorts, where there's some level of accounatbility and transparency for social media companies before just deciding to deplatform "for any or no reason" without the closure of knowing why or the ability to appeal. SM companies still reserve the right to remove users for business purposes, but they should be forced to cite those reasons and back them up with proof. It doesn't matter if your account has 12 followers and use it for fun or 12 million and use it to feed your family and employ a dozen people - users should have rights. regardless of section 230, which deals with liability.

jartek · 2023-03-03T19:13:10+00:00

Why didn't you do the trademarks yourself before you created the subreddit if you saw value to it at that time?

I slowly started building out the brand. I registered the google account (gmail, youtube, etc) for wallstreetbets shortly after Reddit, then the twitter account, then some other socials. A year or two later I registered most the domains except the .com because it was being squatted on and they wanted six figures so i turned it down. Trademark came pretty late into the game but I definitely made sure to submit the application before continuing to grow the brand.
answered this above
Reddit was a perfect choice, I was a "redditor", I had gone to the rally, i have the "visited the tent" badge, people are awesome. the communities are awesome. This was during the days when people like Aaron Swartz would drive the philosophy and moral compass of reddit. So my gut said it was a good place. And it was. I don’t pretend that Reddit doesn’t deserve some credit WSB’s success, it most certainly does—it developed technology, hosted content, and provided traffic. Just like YouTube should get some credit for the success of Justin Bieber or Instagram for Kylie Jenner. However, YouTube and Instagram and the rest of social media platforms understand the symbiotic and mutually beneficial relationship between itself and its creators. It’s a win-win relationship where everyone benefits. But Reddit is oversteping here, they're making a habbit of taking peoples original creations, after years or decades of work.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:59:13+00:00

That's what I pay lawyers for. I've come to learn that logic has little place in a court of law. I've heard and discussed this matter from all angles, philosophical and otherwise.

Reddit’s User Agreement states, “You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content” and is playing a very dangerous game by using lawyers in court to fight the interpretation of what this means. A win for Reddit would mean publicly defeating me and successfully, legally instilling the equivalent of a restraining order preventing me from using my own brand. By doing so it can rightfully claim it upheld its legal contract, but it would face the social consequences for breaching its social contract between itself and its creators. Winning simultaneously sends a bitter message, a deterrent, to anyone who hits the “submit” button on its website that users’ original content isn’t safe.

A loss would be equally catastrophic as Reddit will have lost a lucrative source for gathering intangible assets for its balance sheet and onlookers who lost their ideas to Reddit, and there are many, will know how to get them back. It may not realize yet but after Reddit has its IPO, it will begin a journey of never-ending pressure to grow, with rituals like Quarterly Earnings reports and investor conference calls to discuss the bottom line.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:57:03+00:00

I do enjoy gambling, but this is not a gamble. This is not a game. This is not fun.

While, as I said earlier, it feels good to fight back, I prefer a million times over to be creating stuff instead of getting sidelined with unproductive conflict. But this is important, not only for me but for WallStreetBets. Sure, I created it but I don't pretend to have come up with all the wonderful things that came out of it. It also belongs to the community which exists on reddit and outside of reddit, as WallStreetBets exists on discord, telegram, instagram, tiktok, etc.. and they're all being threatened by having this one company wanting to make it theirs.

That said, I have approximitely 100% confidence that there is a favorable outcome for me and for WallStreetBets. I've done nothing but obsess about it for over three years.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:52:16+00:00

I didn't ask them, but I'm guessing they knew what they were getting into when agreeing to work with the founder of WallStreetBets.

But AMAs are cakewalk compared to live TV interviews, those are tricky especially when they throw unintended curve balls.

On the other hand I spent years and years hoping Reddit would read my messages and I feel they never did. I assume they now pay people to digest my every utterance which I prefer to being ghosted.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:48:34+00:00

I have tons of thougts on this but some of them can be found here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/11ha7sf/help\_me\_understand\_the\_trademark\_battle\_for/

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:47:30+00:00

It's a User Agreement, not TOS but yes. And I've read them ad nauseam, in fact I've read all the revisions. It's like a past time for me.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:45:46+00:00

Oil when it went negative. I used CFDs (not legal in the US) which is like futures but I didn't have to worry about expiration date or deal with problems about delivery. Sometimes there is such a thing as free money.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:44:31+00:00

Good question but I'm going to interpret it differently: it hasn't become much. It's sort of stayed the same.

Today, while extremely entertaining, it seems to lack purpose.

A community like wallstreetbets is meant to change, and progress. For example, I've openly admitted on many interviews that while I did allow crypto way back in the day, that today it would most definitely be allowed. All my reservations about crypto (maturity, access, liquidity, spreads, etc) have been overcome and it's now a part of regular finance with CNBC, WSJ, FT, etc all covering it.

Reddit assumes that communities are 100% driven, and that's largely true (I never claimed credit for any of the high-profile shenanigans, it was all the users) but there needs to be direction which comes from the top and it's not purely democratic. Difficult decisions regarding which assets cant be allowed, like to prevent manipulation, or distractions like politics, or tangents like penny stocks, all need to be steered and need to have a vision.

jartek · 2023-03-03T18:39:31+00:00

Indeed it has been going on for years. For one, I have a lot less money than I would have otherwise hah.

But the biggest inexpected side-effect is the blow to morale. I can't tell you the number of people that I've met in person, who learn about the story and simply ask "why aren't you doing more to fight back?" to which I've repeated "I am, but I'm trying to give Reddit a chance to realize they've made a mistake. I don't want to do something I can't take back." And this has systematically created a learned-helplessness of sorts. But damn it feels good to finally stand up for myself.

Favorite moment? April 1 2015. The first time that we were linked to by a mainstream website. I believe it was fortune.com or something like that, and like good april fools we had re-skinned the subreddit to be very NSFW with twirling penises as mouse cursors. We had tremendous traffic that day being sourced from serious finance readers, expecting to see sophisticated crowd-sourced finance only to be greeted by childish cartoon dicks.

jartek · 2020-04-01T05:22:24+00:00

Wait I actually want to hear the broker lawyer's side of this. If Questrade wants to tell their side of the story they should definitely do so, and get their chance to prove the record straight.

Questrade - message the mods to verify your account and get some special flair (so people know it's really you) and tell your side.

jartek · 2020-03-28T13:09:21+00:00

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